Energy Co bungled bill, now large debt

BarelySentientAI

softekcom said:

Is it legal for an energy company to close a dual fuel account, and create two new separate electricity and gas accounts without the knowledge of the consumer, and then hold the consumer liable retrospectively?

Yes.  They effectively create new accounts without the knowledge of the customer (and which the customer is retrospectively liable for) every time someone moves house.

softekcom said:

Is it legal for an energy company to bill a consumer after they have moved out of the property after settling their bill?  

Yes.  They are entitled to revise the final bill when new information is available regardless if you think it is settled.

softekcom said:

The Ombudsman denied my appeal saying even though I was correct, it made no difference.  The energy had been consumed therefore I must pay this new bill.

I don't know what to do.

The Ombudsman are much more customer friendly than the law requires - they generally go by what is 'fair' rather than what is 'legally required'/  If they're siding with the supplier then they think you have a very poor case.

The next place for you to go would be court - but with the Ombudsman's decision in favour of the supplier, any success there is unlikely in my opinion.

Scot_39

Whilst £3400 for 13 months is not low - it is sadly not unbelievably high either - so without a history of readings - you are a little stuck.

The median TDCV cap (which Ofgem says is for 2-3 in a 2-3 bed home) went up to just under £2000 pa in April 22 - then capped by EPG at £2500 in Oct through to following Apr / May - when I gues you moved out - but with £400 essentially paid - some called it rebated - over 6m of the winter period by EBSS - both assuming you were on a direct normal domestic supply on an Ofgem cap default / SVT tariff .  So if take the winter high consumption months at c£2100 net (£2500 - £400 EBSS 'paid' by govt) - you are being billed for about 60% over that.

But the TDCV is just a guide - I for instance use under half the energy of my neighbours either side according to one comparison sites tool - and am below the Ofgem median TDCV (around 15% last year as mild here) for all electric - my neighbours use around 75/90% over it - so the spread between different households - even in similar properties - is highly variable.

Even a bit more if take into account the c£430 (£1602-£1168) difference between what you paid and were refunded - I guess thats referring to the dual meter account and some of that would be the first month not covered by the seperated accounts ?

Although you dont have electronic records / access to bills anymore - do you still have say paper copies or better still photos on phone - for moving in readings (cApr22) and final moving out readings (cMay23) ?

Although intermediate figures would be better - as unit prices would have potentially changed over 25% in Oct22 in line with cap - it might give a better clue than nothing.

You may have taken photos on say old phone etc - and they may still be backed up on cloud if had that mode selected - even if not on current phone.

You use the words "estimated new bills" when referring re Ombusdman and the final £3400 bill - is that because they were using estimated readings - and in this case I suspect most importantly - not in fact using your final submitted readings on moving out ?

The problem you now have is that it sounds like you don't have any records to argue your case - and the Ombudsman AFAIK from some posters here who have been through it wont re-examine a decision unless significant new information comes to light - if at all (some even say it is final).  

Basically they get info from you and from the supplier - and don't necessarily challange unless conflicts - and as you say have no readings - they are a lot less likely to have challanged EC's version.

If you feel you are missing data (see note above query re end readings on final £3400 demand) - and remain convinced you are being charged unfairly / overcharged - your only option may be if you can do a DSAR / SAR (Data Subject Access Request) with EC - to get the full history of bills - any readings, rates and payments / refunds - over the fulll period at the property - on both the duel and the individual per fuel accounts.

But for now without sufficient data to challange - I suspect you are stuck with the EC £3400 demanded - and the Ombudsman's decision.

And given the complexity of billing over at least 6m of that period - DSAR info will need some careful analysis regarding both EBSS (handled differently across suppliers) and potentially even EPG (given the awful lack of clarity on some suppliers bills on that one).

BarelySentientAI

Scot_39 said:

If you feel you are missing data (see note above query re end readings on final £3400 demand) - and remain convinced you are being charged unfairly / overcharged - your only option may be if you can do a DSAR / SAR (Data Subject Access Request) with EC - to get the full history of bills - any readings, rates and payments / refunds - over the fulll period at the property - on both the duel and the individual per fuel accounts.

DSAR wouldn't need to include bills, readings, rates or payments/refunds on any account.

DSAR requires disclosure of personal data - information relating to a natural person that could directly or indirectly identify them.

Your name, address and telephone number are personal data.  Your meter reading and details of old tariffs are not.

You could get lucky and the company could just do a full data dump of everything on your account, but they wouldn't have to.

MP1995

I guess the big question is how much do you think you owe your Energy supplier for 13 months use given the replies above?

Scot_39

BarelySentientAI said:

Scot_39 said:

If you feel you are missing data (see note above query re end readings on final £3400 demand) - and remain convinced you are being charged unfairly / overcharged - your only option may be if you can do a DSAR / SAR (Data Subject Access Request) with EC - to get the full history of bills - any readings, rates and payments / refunds - over the fulll period at the property - on both the duel and the individual per fuel accounts.

DSAR wouldn't need to include bills, readings, rates or payments/refunds on any account.

DSAR requires disclosure of personal data - information relating to a natural person that could directly or indirectly identify them.

Your name, address and telephone number are personal data.  Your meter reading and details of old tariffs are not.

You could get lucky and the company could just do a full data dump of everything on your account, but they wouldn't have to.

Thanks for the clarification.

Just seen others here suggesting it as a way to get information out of companies they had billing disagreements with.

I got info out of SG - such as the exact dates and readings submitted by two meter reading visits (we only had family submitted readings) as part of the 4 sets thry had failed to bill according to over 2 years - as part of a request during formal complaint into demand and suspect billing splits. 

But OP seems to have gone through complaint and Ombudsman already.  So was kind of hoping that SAR route may help when that had maybe "failed" to provide the clarity on billing.

BarelySentientAI

Scot_39 said:

BarelySentientAI said:

Scot_39 said:

If you feel you are missing data (see note above query re end readings on final £3400 demand) - and remain convinced you are being charged unfairly / overcharged - your only option may be if you can do a DSAR / SAR (Data Subject Access Request) with EC - to get the full history of bills - any readings, rates and payments / refunds - over the fulll period at the property - on both the duel and the individual per fuel accounts.

DSAR wouldn't need to include bills, readings, rates or payments/refunds on any account.

DSAR requires disclosure of personal data - information relating to a natural person that could directly or indirectly identify them.

Your name, address and telephone number are personal data.  Your meter reading and details of old tariffs are not.

You could get lucky and the company could just do a full data dump of everything on your account, but they wouldn't have to.

Thanks for the clarification.

Just seen others here suggesting it as a way to get information out of companies they had billing disagreements with.

I got info out of SG - such as the exact dates and readings submitted by two meter reading visits (we only had family submitted readings) as part of the 4 sets thry had failed to bill according to over 2 years - as part of a request during formal complaint into demand and suspect billing splits. 

But OP seems to have gone through complaint and Ombudsman already.  So was kind of hoping that SAR route may help when that had maybe "failed" to provide the clarity on billing.

Sometimes it does - as you experienced, they can give more than strictly necessary, and often it's easier for them to do that than to go through and pick out which bits to give and which to withhold.  And a court can order disclosure of anything relevant to a claim anyway.

What it does usually do is get copies of email trails, recordings of telephone calls etc

I don't really know how to advise the OP on this one..  Having gone through the supplier's complaints process and the Ombudsman, both of which have decided 'against' the OP (who also appears to have no evidence, which kind of kills any court claim), there's not a lot else to do.

Scot_39

Whilst I asked for the data to be forwarded in writing, my discovery was actually whilst talking to customer services - not a formal SAR request. 

The customer services person was reviewing notes on account - and said she could see our submitted readings on notes - but also the 2 others by meter readers we didn't have  - but not on billing systems.  So I simply asked for them to confirm them as well as formally asking her to formally register the call as me raising complaint. 

(Primarily to freeze the instant demand bill for the catch up - which I believed was an unreasonable demand given they had the information to bill far more accurately over previous 2 years - I.e. actual readings.  We never disputed the final readings and that money was owed - just the timing)

softekcom

BarelySentientAI said:

softekcom said:

Is it legal for an energy company to close a dual fuel account, and create two new separate electricity and gas accounts without the knowledge of the consumer, and then hold the consumer liable retrospectively?

Yes.  They effectively create new accounts without the knowledge of the customer (and which the customer is retrospectively liable for) every time someone moves house.

softekcom said:

Is it legal for an energy company to bill a consumer after they have moved out of the property after settling their bill?  

Yes.  They are entitled to revise the final bill when new information is available regardless if you think it is settled.

softekcom said:

The Ombudsman denied my appeal saying even though I was correct, it made no difference.  The energy had been consumed therefore I must pay this new bill.

I don't know what to do.

The Ombudsman are much more customer friendly than the law requires - they generally go by what is 'fair' rather than what is 'legally required'/  If they're siding with the supplier then they think you have a very poor case.

The next place for you to go would be court - but with the Ombudsman's decision in favour of the supplier, any success there is unlikely in my opinion.

The ombudsman says the energy was consumed based on the average of similar sized households.  In my complaint I had said that I had spent long periods overseas and away, when the house was empty. Yet the ombudsman says that the energy was 'consumed' based on averages. 
The bills they are chasing me for (for the two new accounts) are estimates - no actuals/readings. 

softekcom

MP1995 said:

I guess the big question is how much do you think you owe your Energy supplier for 13 months use given the replies above?

I believe the dual fuel account that that i was being billed for, that I was paying by direct debit (total of £1602.88 paid until Feb 23) was correct.  I have no idea why they sent a refund and closed the account in April, even before i told them I was moving.  When i moved out, I was expecting a bill for Feb-April, and that this would be the final bill.
Note: I was overseas in Dec-Jan, and away from the property mid-March to end April.  The house was empty during those months. 

Scot_39

What is the basis of that "belief" though.

If it is purely that the cash amount seemed reasonable thats not enough.

If it was because you did have online or app access to bills with actual not estimated readings then that is completely different  - and the sort of evidence you actually needed to challange new demand.

But arguably that data should have been recovered before submitting case to Ombudsman.

Basically unless its based on hard measurements from meters it is just an opinion as far as Ombudsman is likely concerned. 

In the end of the day - your net transactions on both sets of accounts should match entry and final readings- charged at appropriate rates - for the period.

A yours vs theirs estimate is just that - and would seem the Ombudsman  has already accepted theirs - and any further appeal (if even possible) etc likely to follow

There's a poster here who's post signature is something like "never pay an estimated bill" - but you have to play your part. So check suppliers have - either via working smart - given by you if able  or taken by meter readers if unable periodically by registering on PSR  - readings - and actually then check bill based on them.  

If you don't have any actual readings but you believe the supplier did have (as above if you had electronic access in past, if meters working smart or you know were submitted but not kept) then as above try SAR route.  And ask for "all information"- bills rates, readings etc - as one SAR guide suggests some might provide - not just personal as above clarification.

But to be honest little worried its now too late - and suspect your approach should have been the other way around

Submit if necessary, keep final readings
Get final bill
Challenge amount against readings - enter formal complaint
Ask for all pertinent data from account records- via SAR if necessary - to stucture an evidenced challange to amount
Submit to supplier
Raise with Ombudsman if rejected.

Some posters here have said the Ombudsman's decision is final (but not always then accepted or acted upon by supplier and some talk about suppliers challenging) - but not sure as never used.
But some who have used service warn others you therefore need to be fully prepared and give the clearest factual argument - not beliefs, not emotions, you can.