'Lost' water meter stopped giving readings.

YoungBlueEyes

I'm a bit stuck on what to do here and I'd appreciate some advice. 

A couple of months ago a fellah from Morrisons Data Services came round to take a manual water meter reading as it has stopped transmitting. He said it wasn't a problem, it was probably just that the battery had died. His handheld device thing said it's in the outside path* with the external stopcock, but it isn't. He came in and searched under the stairs where the water pipe comes in, under the sink and the surrounding cupboards in my kitchen, round the boiler and the cupboard under it - no meter. He even checked the bathroom in case it was attached to the loo (he used to work with a proper Old School type and apparently they sometimes used to be there) - no meter. 

He was here a good half hour, and as he left he said that it was my responsibility to find it and make sure it was giving accurate readings. That's Q1, is that true?  I asked where he suggested I look because short of pulling floorboards or taking lumps out of the walls I was stumped. He didn't answer. 

I rang Yorkshire Water and told them what had happened, they said it was alright they'd just request someone come round to put a new meter in, but that I needed to find the old one because that's where the new one has to go. I don't know where it is. Fine, they'll put a note on the system and send someone out. No, the fellah just left and he couldn't find it. In which case a different sort of new one will be have to be ordered and it'll be £190. Q2 I wouldn't have thought I'd have to pay for another one? Isn't like gas/elec meters - they're in your house but they're not yours?

This morning my annual statement came, and they're putting my DD up from £39 pm to £43. I noticed all the readings they've used for this last year (Aug '23 - Jul 24) are estimated. So I rang them again. Yes they know I don't have a functioning meter but a new one is on it's way. I asked them how they know how much to charge me when my meter isn't working, the guy said not to worry because £39pm is the lowest tariff so if anything I'm getting a bargain. Q4, what if we're using less than their 'lowest'? But how do you know I'm not using less than that? (We're very low users). He said when the meter issue is sorted they can recalculate the bill based on the last actual reading and go from there. Ok good, so I might be in for a chunky refund then? No we only go back 3 months the guy said. Q5 surely they should refund me (if appropriate) for all the months they've been estimating?) 

Sorry it's a long post, I'd be grateful for any advice on next steps, and suggestions of where it might be. Also - if my assumptions are wrong I can take it blunt.

Edit - * the outside path = down the side of our house, we're in a semi.

-taff

If you have access to your previous years bills, check and see if they were estimated or they came from a meter reading.

They'll put you on the lowest tariff, ie.e they'll put you on the lowest tariff for your type of property, not your usage.

Is your stopcock situated in the ground under a round/square cover?

And apparently, this is their problem according to their pamphlet

https://www.yorkshirewater.com/media/apjfurom/terms-conditions-of-a-metered-water-supply-0420.pdf

Very first line says it's their water meter and they are responsible for it.

Also, keep this link handy in case you need to make a complaint to the ombudsman

https://www.ofwat.gov.uk/regulated-companies/investigations/making-a-complaint/

YoungBlueEyes

That's brilliant, thanks taff. I'll hook out last year's bill to check if it was estimated. It shouldn't be, because the fellah that came round said it had only recently stopped transmitting it's reading. Good that I shouldn't be charged because I haven't damaged their meter, it's just that none of us can find it. External stopcock is outside under a small square cover, internal one is just the other side of the external wall on the supply pipe, under the stairs.

Ideally they'll put a new meter in there, at their expense. I'm not asking for the moon on a stick. I don't know why they're sticking to the line that I have to find the old one so a new one can go in it's place... 

I've bookmarked the Ombudsman link, just in case.

-taff

If you did have a meter, the only place it could be is along the pipe somewhere that feeds up to your internal stopcock. If your pipe is underground until it gets to that point, there isn't one.

YoungBlueEyes

The internal stopcock is a couple of foot higher and 2 foot away from the external stopcock. It goes under my external wall and comes in under the stairs.

Edit - pic 



So if I don't have a meter what was the guy talking about saying the battery had only just gone and it'd been giving readings up to then..? *sigh*

victor2

Does your neighbour have a meter? If so, look for theirs to get an idea where it is likely to be.

It does sound like you've never had a meter, but the billing system believes you do have one, and has been using estimates ever since it got into that state.

-taff

I'm not sure you have one to be honest. If the meter isn't attached prior to the internal stopcock, you could tee off it and essentially have free water. That's why I said check your previous bills to see if they are all estmated.

The only other reason would be if you had new sections of unpainted pipe where there could have been a meter but it's been removed by whoever had the house before you.

YoungBlueEyes

Previous annual statement is all estimated too. So I don't have - and possibly have never had - a meter. 

Neighbours either side both have one. Attached neighbours is with the external stopcock, but much nearer the pavement. Other neighbour has hers under the stairs. Neighbour across the road has one in her garage.

So presuming that's that bit sorted, and I get one installed, is there anything I can do about possible over-estimation of previous 2 years bills? We've careful users, and I have 2 big water butts in the garden. Could they see what I actually use in a year then apply that to the previous 2? (We've only been here 2 years.) Or is it a lost cause?

twopenny

Definitely find out where the neighbours is for a start.

I went to photograph how my meter is installed to give clues - and found a round lump of formed concrete sitting end on, on top of it! Heavens knows where that came from or how it got there but now I'm going to have to do something about it

I guess it's possible there was a meter installed and taken out again............

Never a meter (was that on the buyers/sellers/deeds) when you moved?

If 'the batteries have gone' that's around 20yrs. But that's their problem.

Also they own the meter - so I don't see that you should be paying for it. Presumably it's on the assumption that a)you damaged it b)you lost it     But you didn't.They've lost it and lost the readings because the batteries haven't been replaced.

Check too if it's any cheaper to pay by the year in monthly installments.

YoungBlueEyes

Good point about paying by the year 2p, I'll add that to my list for when I ring them again later. I also want to know if having water butts will take a bit off the bill. I thought it could... Good luck with your concrete!

No sections of unpainted pipe taff.

I'll dig out the forms from when we bought the house, see what the seller put. That might give an answer.

Thank you all, I appreciate the help  

-taff

No, they can't see what you've used in a year, they can only see it retropsectively if you had a meter installed now. You could make a complaint to say they have been estimating your bills based on your property type but not the amount of household occupants in the two years you've been there, you've got waterbutts etc, careful user. Not sure how far you'd get with that but you can push it as far as you can. Also, being as they are currently estimating in the probable absence of a water meter, go crazy and fill your butts because they're big and they don't lie....