Any pro/con to prefer home Tesla EV charger for non-Tesla car?

bobfredbob

An unexpected car bill means we're looking to see if it's worth getting a newer car.  Is there any expectation that prices become lower in the next year?

I've not had to look for a car for over a decade, but used EVs/PHEVs are, perhaps, just within our price range given that we rarely do long journeys.

I see numerous chargers.  All seem to need wi-fi, or like Ohme, a "sim card...cost covered by Ohme for the first 3 years," with no immediately clear indication of what happens after three years.  Hive seemed similar.  (I'm sure it says somewhere on their website).

Tesla car insurance is too much for me.  But, their charger is compatible with other CCS2 cars.

I know the Tesla brand.  Their company will still be around in 10/20 years.  Their charger costs 475.  Other brands seem to cost more in, say, Screwfix.  (I believe Tesla requires some extra earthing, so perhaps it evens up the price).

So, why would I buy a non-Tesla charger?  Is there any pro/con compared to other chargers?

I don't mean this in a "there are other brands take your pick...", but isn't it risky to spend so much money on a "non-brand" charger/installation when the chargers seem to require the company to remain in business for the charger to work/sync usage with the electric company?

I assume the other brands will just harvest my data, sell it to the highest bidder, before being bought out in five years and leaving me an "unsupported/dumb" charger.  Or perhaps I'm just cynical?  I don't have solar, fuse box is single phase 100amp.

Of course, if I were very cynical, I'd expect in five years to get an email telling me how "Ohme is committed to a greener fairer future for all but have had to take the difficult decision to charge 10.99pm subscription fee to cover costs, but, as a valued customer, you can get it for one year for 79.99, or continue to use it as a dumb charger for free."

Whereas, I'd expect a Tesla charger to remain free, perhaps by charging more for their cars or forecourt charging.

Given the relatively large purchase/installation costs, I am generally curious since I can't see any discussion about it.

My charger would need to be installed about 50' from the house (due to long lawn), which is borderline wi-fi range.  I'd be interested if a spotty wi-fi connection caused problems and how any problems were overcome.

Thanks.

Keep_pedalling

Home charge points do need internet access for advanced operation such as integrating with Octopus intelligent tariffs but if some time in the future the manufacturer fails the things will still work in dumb mode.

I have a MyEnergi Zappi and when I was without internet for several days I just set the box up to do a boost charge on the box itself rather than the app. 

bobfredbob

That's interesting to know. 

I had assumed there was some communications between the charger, car, and the tariff.  When I went to the Octopus Go page, it wanted to know my charger and car.  For example, Tesla 7kw charger and it was compatible, though it depended on the car, e.g., Skoda Enya ok, Toyota Prius Plug-in and Nissan Leaf and Hyundai not ok, with the website saying they're working on supporting more models, which suggests there's something on their side that's incompatible.

Interestingly, MyEnergi Zappi was supported (on their website) with the Toyota, Nissan Leaf, and Hyundai, so I'm even more confused!

Keep_pedalling

bobfredbob said:

That's interesting to know. 

I had assumed there was some communications between the charger, car, and the tariff.  When I went to the Octopus Go page, it wanted to know my charger and car.  For example, Tesla 7kw charger and it was compatible, though it depended on the car, e.g., Skoda Enya ok, Toyota Prius Plug-in and Nissan Leaf and Hyundai not ok, with the website saying they're working on supporting more models, which suggests there's something on their side that's incompatible.

Interestingly, MyEnergi Zappi was supported (on their website) with the Toyota, Nissan Leaf, and Hyundai, so I'm even more confused!

Intelligent Octopus Go can work with a range of cars and chargers. If you have a compatible charger it will work with any car. I have an ID3 which is compatible but I have chosen to use the charger rather than the car to work with Octopus. 

I also have solar panels and can set the Zappi up to charge the car if solar is generating enough to charge the car for free. Again this still works if the Zappi can’t connect to the internet.

WellKnownSid

CCS is a DC standard - you will be using AC at home.

AC charging does not support state of charge comms with the charger hence the need for Internet access so it can speak to the car.

100A carriers often have smaller fuses inside!

born_again

bobfredbob said:

An unexpected car bill means we're looking to see if it's worth getting a newer car.  Is there any expectation that prices become lower in the next year?

I've not had to look for a car for over a decade, but used EVs/PHEVs are, perhaps, just within our price range given that we rarely do long journeys.

I see numerous chargers.  All seem to need wi-fi, or like Ohme, a "sim card...cost covered by Ohme for the first 3 years," with no immediately clear indication of what happens after three years.  Hive seemed similar.  (I'm sure it says somewhere on their website).

Tesla car insurance is too much for me.  But, their charger is compatible with other CCS2 cars.

I know the Tesla brand.  Their company will still be around in 10/20 years.  Their charger costs 475.  Other brands seem to cost more in, say, Screwfix.  (I believe Tesla requires some extra earthing, so perhaps it evens up the price).

So, why would I buy a non-Tesla charger?  Is there any pro/con compared to other chargers?

I don't mean this in a "there are other brands take your pick...", but isn't it risky to spend so much money on a "non-brand" charger/installation when the chargers seem to require the company to remain in business for the charger to work/sync usage with the electric company?

I assume the other brands will just harvest my data, sell it to the highest bidder, before being bought out in five years and leaving me an "unsupported/dumb" charger.  Or perhaps I'm just cynical?  I don't have solar, fuse box is single phase 100amp.

Of course, if I were very cynical, I'd expect in five years to get an email telling me how "Ohme is committed to a greener fairer future for all but have had to take the difficult decision to charge 10.99pm subscription fee to cover costs, but, as a valued customer, you can get it for one year for 79.99, or continue to use it as a dumb charger for free."

Whereas, I'd expect a Tesla charger to remain free, perhaps by charging more for their cars or forecourt charging.

Given the relatively large purchase/installation costs, I am generally curious since I can't see any discussion about it.

My charger would need to be installed about 50' from the house (due to long lawn), which is borderline wi-fi range.  I'd be interested if a spotty wi-fi connection caused problems and how any problems were overcome.

Thanks.

For one, unless your car is compatible via their API, then you could not use Intelligent Octopus tariff & possibly other tariffs that allow you to charge in the daytime @ off peak rate due to surplus electricity.

There is a good Ohme facebook group & while Ohme do have the T/C for subscription after 3 years, no one has ever mentioned being charged.
Even if they did start charging. If your other option wall box uses WiFi, then you are paying for that as well...

If you think Tesla will stay free, you are missing one major thing. Tesla are king of the paying for extra features in their cars.
So the thought that in the future they will not charge on their wall box... Time will tell. Or go bust? 

Personally have a Ohme, took 9 months to pay back the cost in savings over petrol.

TBH, unless you are getting a Tesla, then you might as well gat another brand. Many are far better.

bobfredbob

I didn't know that Octopus allows charging during the day at off-peak rate.  So, it makes sense that it supports some chargers, but it's still odd to me that some charger/car combinations don't work on their website.

When I look at, say, E.on, it seems to work with any charger (presumably just an Economy-7 style tariff).  Whereas Ovo only supports two manufacturers (Ohme and Indra), and doesn't support Nissan, Citroen, or Vauxhall cars at all!  Ovo seems to do "charge anytime" (regardless of surplus on-peak energy).

So, I worry that I'd buy, say a Nissan, think this is great I can charge it on Octopus in the daytime for 7p.  Then swap energy supplier and suddenly the car is no longer chargeable in the same way and can only charge overnight.

Maybe it's software on those cars?  Maybe it will get an update?  Maybe it's not fixable?  Maybe the problem is on the energy provider's side?  Maybe in a few years those API change and my charger is obsolete.

It's unclear to me if, say, an Ohme charger is talking to Ohme servers (that have to be paid for and maintained by someone for the next few decades), or if it's only talking to Octopus's server.

I'm thinking it must be talking to Ohme servers since I don't see anyone asking how to switch supplier details on the charger, and the Hive charger installation warns the installer not to give the password to the purchaser (which would allow them to change the server connection details).

I can't see how companies like Ohme (and the hundreds of other brands in Octopus's drop-down menu) can survive long-term on retail sales alone and scale.  For example on a dynamic tariff, it would have to be monitoring everyone's half-hourly tariff then send a message to the tens-of-thousands of people who want their car charged if price drops below x pence.  That will cost money as more people get chargers.

Since any car I buy is likely to be kept for many years (rather than a couple of years), I want to ensure I don't buy something that will be obsolete.

Maybe the Tesla charger won't be "subscription free", but the Tesla company have other income streams they can tap to keep costs down, gain a large foothold, then raise prices later one the competition is reduced. They also have an incentive to keep their chargers working with all the energy companies/tariffs.  I've no idea if they support the variable rate tariffs.

born_again

bobfredbob said:

I didn't know that Octopus allows charging during the day at off-peak rate.  So, it makes sense that it supports some chargers, but it's still odd to me that some charger/car combinations don't work on their website.

When I look at, say, E.on, it seems to work with any charger (presumably just an Economy-7 style tariff).  Whereas Ovo only supports two manufacturers (Ohme and Indra), and doesn't support Nissan, Citroen, or Vauxhall cars at all!  Ovo seems to do "charge anytime" (regardless of surplus on-peak energy).

So, I worry that I'd buy, say a Nissan, think this is great I can charge it on Octopus in the daytime for 7p.  Then swap energy supplier and suddenly the car is no longer chargeable in the same way and can only charge overnight.

Maybe it's software on those cars?  Maybe it will get an update?  Maybe it's not fixable?  Maybe the problem is on the energy provider's side?  Maybe in a few years those API change and my charger is obsolete.

It's unclear to me if, say, an Ohme charger is talking to Ohme servers (that have to be paid for and maintained by someone for the next few decades), or if it's only talking to Octopus's server.

I'm thinking it must be talking to Ohme servers since I don't see anyone asking how to switch supplier details on the charger, and the Hive charger installation warns the installer not to give the password to the purchaser (which would allow them to change the server connection details).

I can't see how companies like Ohme (and the hundreds of other brands in Octopus's drop-down menu) can survive long-term on retail sales alone and scale.  For example on a dynamic tariff, it would have to be monitoring everyone's half-hourly tariff then send a message to the tens-of-thousands of people who want their car charged if price drops below x pence.  That will cost money as more people get chargers.

Since any car I buy is likely to be kept for many years (rather than a couple of years), I want to ensure I don't buy something that will be obsolete.

Maybe the Tesla charger won't be "subscription free", but the Tesla company have other income streams they can tap to keep costs down, gain a large foothold, then raise prices later one the competition is reduced. They also have an incentive to keep their chargers working with all the energy companies/tariffs.  I've no idea if they support the variable rate tariffs.

That is why you link the wall box to your supplier/tariff. 

Car API are prone to updates which stop them working with these tariffs.
Kia was pulled a few years ago, as it kept causing flat 12V batteries, that was fixed then there were other issues. Has never been back on Octopus approved list.

API only would get polled when car is connected, which is not that long.

Tesla like any wall box could become obsolete. If regulation's change.

ididgetwhereiamtoday

i just use the timer on the car for cheap charging between 00:30 and 05:30. 

It saves a lot of faffing about. 

Petriix

Two points: 
1) Don't get a PHEV unless you have very unusual circumstances of driving under 30 miles most days but very regular journeys of over 300 miles which couldn't accommodate a 40 minute charging stop. Just get a full EV.
2) Myenergi are a massive company and are unlikely to go bust anytime soon. Get a Zappi so that you can utilise Intelligent Octopus Go and potentially add solar in the future. The Myenergi integration with Octopus is less clunky than the Ohme integration. 

Bigwheels1111

I must admit, my plan is to keep my 5008 diesel until it drops dead.
2016 plate with 24.5k on the clock.
I do so little miles that to change cars would cause a massive carbon footprint that would never be offset.

I helped a friend buy a Citroen E-C4 X a few weeks ago.
It is a very nice well specked car. Shine Plus model.
Massive sun roof.
Price was very good. £21,500 new.

He has an MG ZS EV Already, his wife’s car.
Had to be an EV as he’s is a mini cab driver in London.

He uses a pod point charger, I can’t remember how it works, I just know it’s set to charge from 24.00 - 04.00am.
When he got it a few year ago it was 5p a kWh, so £2.00 per full charge.
Most of the time he gets free charging from Sainsburys, drives down and plugs in for 4 hours free charging.
Walks home and walks back to collect it.
Over 20,000 free miles so far.