Leasehold managing company refuse to back down when they have no legal right to charge us

Angusmika

Hi hoping someone can help or if anyone else has been in the same position ! So here is the situation - the management company on my lease is liquidated as is my freeholder, I have recently been made aware that I have a new managing agent - we don’t believe they have any right to charge us or manage us as there is no freeholder to instruct them. The freehold is being brought by myself and fellow leaseholders off of the crown. Has anyone had any experience in this happening where a managing agent isn’t instructed but insists on charging you ? And what can I do about this ?  I thought possibly tribunal is the best option ? In the meantime this agent is demanding fees and threatening with debt collectors. I have repeatedly asked who is instructing them to which they avoid the question. Have filed a complaint in the meantime

eddddy

Angusmika said:

So here is the situation - the management company on my lease is liquidated as is my freeholder, I have recently been made aware that I have a new managing agent - we don’t believe they have any right to charge us or manage us as there is no freeholder to instruct them. 

Based on your comment above, could you clarify - are you saying you have a tripartite lease?

i.e. A lease between 3 parties:

1. A freeholder (lessor/landlord)
2. A management company
3. A leaseholder (lessee/tenant) - i.e. you

In that case, the freeholder doesn't instruct the management company. The freeholder and management company can be completely independent entities. And it would be quite possible that:

• The freehold has passed to the crown

• The management company's rights and responsibilities have been transferred/sold to a new management company

• (And you continue to be the leaseholder)

Angusmika said:

The freehold is being brought by myself and fellow leaseholders off of the crown. 

If you have a tripartite lease, buying the freehold won't give you the right to manage the building.

You would have to follow a different legal process called "Right to Manage", if you want to do that.

Angusmika

Thanks for getting back ! We do have a 3 party lease. The management agent on lease is also liquidated, we tried to do right to manage before and they refused to hand over and we weren’t sure what steps to take after that, how could I find out if the rights were sold to another company? 

Angusmika

eddddy said:

Angusmika said:

So here is the situation - the management company on my lease is liquidated as is my freeholder, I have recently been made aware that I have a new managing agent - we don’t believe they have any right to charge us or manage us as there is no freeholder to instruct them. 

Based on your comment above, could you clarify - are you saying you have a tripartite lease?

i.e. A lease between 3 parties:

1. A freeholder (lessor/landlord)
2. A management company
3. A leaseholder (lessee/tenant) - i.e. you

In that case, the freeholder doesn't instruct the management company. The freeholder and management company can be completely independent entities. And it would be quite possible that:

• The freehold has passed to the crown

• The management company's rights and responsibilities have been transferred/sold to a new management company

• (And you continue to be the leaseholder)

Angusmika said:

The freehold is being brought by myself and fellow leaseholders off of the crown. 

If you have a tripartite lease, buying the freehold won't give you the right to manage the building.

You would have to follow a different legal process called "Right to Manage", if you want to do that.

Thanks for getting back ! We do have a 3 party lease. The management agent on lease is also liquidated, we tried to do right to manage before and they refused to hand over and we weren’t sure what steps to take after that, how could I find out if the rights were sold to another company? 

Bookworm105

Angusmika said:

we tried to do right to manage before and they refused to hand over and we weren’t sure what steps to take after that, h

sounds like you may not have known what you were doing with the RTM process.
if you had done it correctly the existing agent cannot refuse even if their contract still has time to run.

what next? You take it to tribunal 
The Right to Manage: A brief overview - The Leasehold Advisory Service (lease-advice.org)

Acquiring the management functions and powers previously exercised by the Landlord or another party to the lease will depend on how the RTM Company was established.

An RTM Company acquires the right to manage on the date specified in the ‘notice of claim’ provided there has been no challenge from the landlord.

If, however, there is a dispute, then if the First-tier Tribunal (Property Chamber) (the Tribunal) determines in favour of an RTM Company, the acquisition date is three months after the Tribunal’s determination becomes final.

In circumstances where the landlord could not be found or traced, then an application must be made to the Tribunal, and the acquisition date will be specified in the order made by the Tribunal.

eddddy

Angusmika said:

... how could I find out if the rights were sold to another company? 

Potentially, you could download a copy of the title register from the land registry website for £3.  https://www.gov.uk/search-property-information-land-registry

(Be careful of dodgy unauthorised websites that charge you more for downloads.)

BUT... if the transfer only happened recently, it may not have been registered yet.

And/or I guess you can ask the new management co for evidence of the transfer.  But I guess they should have served notice on you anyway, telling you that they had taken over as the new management company.

Angusmika said:

we tried to do right to manage before and they refused to hand over and we weren’t sure what steps to take after that,

Assuming that you're eligible for Right To Manage, and you follow the process correctly - the management company can't legally refuse to hand over.

Angusmika

I have a recent land registry letter saying it was deemed escheat had no mention of management company / agents. I have asked new company so many times who instructing them to no response. And we never received notice of them taking over.  We can try right to manage again - they did refuse we should have gone to tribunal then but now buying the freehold wanted to focus on that, they are charging ground rent when there is no freeholder to pay that to ! 

eddddy

 

Angusmika said:

I have asked new company so many times who instructing them to no response. 

It sounds like you were asking the wrong question. Nobody is instructing the management company.

In simple terms - the lease is telling the management company what they must do.

(But I guess a 'nice' Management Company would have taken the time to explain that to you.)

Angusmika said:

We can try right to manage again - they did refuse we should have gone to tribunal then 

I'm guessing you mean:

• you served a notice of claim for the RTM

• the freeholder and/or management company challenged the RTM claim with a counter notice

and you gave up.


What did they say in the counter notice? i.e. What reasons did they give for challenging your RTM claim?  Were they legitimate reasons?

Angusmika

My solicitor has said keep pressing them for an answer and demand to know who is instructing them that’s why I’ve been asking them that question. yes we gave up , they said we never had permission from the freeholder - although we now don’t have one and the crown won’t get involved.