PIP Review getting in a flap!

Alice_Holt

peteuk said:

Alice_Holt said:

Include a copy of your tribunal decision notice.  Perhaps a health professional, carer, family member, friend could confirm in a letter that your conditions have not improved since that decision (if that's the case). 

Request an extension from PIP if you are running out of time - don't rush it.

No reason to include your your tribunal decision letter, it will already be on your DWP profile, which will be accessed by the assessor if you need an assessment.  However unless things have changed, assesses are advised not to read tribunal decision letters which i disagreed with.  My argument was if I look at the previous PIP assessment and come to the same outcome but I know it was adjudged to be wrong at tribunal then I should go with what the tribunal said.

      If 'assesses are advised not to read tribunal decision letters...on the claimants DWP profile'  then it's even more important that a copy is included with the review form (for the DWP DM as well).

    It's completely nonsensical that assessors are looking at a form which asks about changes if their base is the flawed decision made by an earlier assessor rather than the tribunal's correction to that flawed ATOS / Capita decision, i.e the client's current points and award.

   It also makes it vital that full explanation and information be given on the form. How might an assessor interpret 'no change'  on the review form for a PIP activity that the flawed assessment scored at 0 points when a tribunal subsequently awarded points - I imagine they would remove those tribunal points awarded, putting the claimant back to having appeal yet another flawed assessment.    Completely ludicrous  

  Having the tribunal decision included in the form, will also be important at MR and appeal stage. It helps clarify the claimants comments about changes to their condition and sets the base. 

Muttleythefrog

Yeah I do agree that I would treat this like a new claim and detail all your problems with examples. I would also make sure you have electronic copy of your work so you may re-use it in future saving some effort and of course be able to refer to it if assessed on the phone etc

But I have to agree with Alice... include evidence that supports your case and therefore I would include the tribunal decision and I may even refer to it as you document your current problems. It gives a base position from which to advise/argue there have been no changes (if relevant) for an activity and makes it more likely to be considered (by a Decision Maker and/or assessor). I think with PIP you've got to think of it a bit like guiding a supermarket trolley down an aisle... it will try to veer off course all of the time so try to actively guide it so it will not ram the baked beans.... make it easier for them to draw the right conclusions while guiding them away from poor ones.

Bluenunn_in_the_north

poppy12345 said:

Bluenunn_in_the_north said:

Rubyroobs said:

I helped someone with a PIP review and the form was sent back July 2023. They had the decision last week over 13 months later.

Wow, that is quite some back log. Thank you, I didn't know they asked so far in advance. Due to my experience I expected them to reject and stop the claim in a few weeks but then saw the date on the award letter...

Due to the backlogs I would say it's unlikely you'll have a decision before your award is due to end. If it did happen and you were refused your current award would end because any new decision overrules your current decision. 

I returned my form in November last year and still waiting. 

Thanks for the comment. May I ask where you're getting that information from? It doesn't make logical sense if they award PIP for a fixed period and then they  can reneg on that date before it is reached.

Just curious not doubting you.

Thanks.

poppy12345

Bluenunn_in_the_north said:

poppy12345 said:

Bluenunn_in_the_north said:

Rubyroobs said:

I helped someone with a PIP review and the form was sent back July 2023. They had the decision last week over 13 months later.

Wow, that is quite some back log. Thank you, I didn't know they asked so far in advance. Due to my experience I expected them to reject and stop the claim in a few weeks but then saw the date on the award letter...

Due to the backlogs I would say it's unlikely you'll have a decision before your award is due to end. If it did happen and you were refused your current award would end because any new decision overrules your current decision. 

I returned my form in November last year and still waiting. 

Thanks for the comment. May I ask where you're getting that information from? It doesn't make logical sense if they award PIP for a fixed period and then they  can renew on the date before that.

Just curious not doubting you.

Thanks.

Any new decision made will overrule the current decision, whether that was made by DWP or a Tribunal. That's always been the rules. 

Muttleythefrog

Bluenunn_in_the_north said:

poppy12345 said:

Bluenunn_in_the_north said:

Rubyroobs said:

I helped someone with a PIP review and the form was sent back July 2023. They had the decision last week over 13 months later.

Wow, that is quite some back log. Thank you, I didn't know they asked so far in advance. Due to my experience I expected them to reject and stop the claim in a few weeks but then saw the date on the award letter...

Due to the backlogs I would say it's unlikely you'll have a decision before your award is due to end. If it did happen and you were refused your current award would end because any new decision overrules your current decision. 

I returned my form in November last year and still waiting. 

Thanks for the comment. May I ask where you're getting that information from? It doesn't make logical sense if they award PIP for a fixed period and then they  can renew on the date before that.

Just curious not doubting you.

Thanks.

Quickly... as Poppy advises those have been the rules... they also apply to any extension you may get to award if they are running out of time to make a decision next year. The narrative counter to the 'logical sense' would obviously be that PIP is awarded for a length of time based significantly of how likely the disablements are to change.. but disablements can change at any time and so they will say there is need to regularly review to keep the award correct and of course the best way to know the level of disablements in 2024 is to look at them in 2024 not 2022 and base an award in 2024 on a 2024 assessment. Usually 12 months are added to the prognosis to give an award such that the last 12 months can be used to carry out a review.... due to resources, backlogs etc that's gone a bit awry so review forms are coming out a bit later (8/9 months before award end?) and decisions often falling beyond the expiry of the award (in an extension period). 

peteuk

Alice_Holt said:

peteuk said:

Alice_Holt said:

Include a copy of your tribunal decision notice.  Perhaps a health professional, carer, family member, friend could confirm in a letter that your conditions have not improved since that decision (if that's the case). 

Request an extension from PIP if you are running out of time - don't rush it.

No reason to include your your tribunal decision letter, it will already be on your DWP profile, which will be accessed by the assessor if you need an assessment.  However unless things have changed, assesses are advised not to read tribunal decision letters which i disagreed with.  My argument was if I look at the previous PIP assessment and come to the same outcome but I know it was adjudged to be wrong at tribunal then I should go with what the tribunal said.

      If 'assesses are advised not to read tribunal decision letters...on the claimants DWP profile'  then it's even more important that a copy is included with the review form (for the DWP DM as well).

    It's completely nonsensical that assessors are looking at a form which asks about changes if their base is the flawed decision made by an earlier assessor rather than the tribunal's correction to that flawed ATOS / Capita decision, i.e the client's current points and award.

   It also makes it vital that full explanation and information be given on the form. How might an assessor interpret 'no change'  on the review form for a PIP activity that the flawed assessment scored at 0 points when a tribunal subsequently awarded points - I imagine they would remove those tribunal points awarded, putting the claimant back to having appeal yet another flawed assessment.    Completely ludicrous  

  Having the tribunal decision included in the form, will also be important at MR and appeal stage. It helps clarify the claimants comments about changes to their condition and sets the base. 

There is a difference in the assessor being advised not to read it and the DM not having it.  As I have also stated the tribunals decission letter will be on the claimants documents, bearing in mind if the claimant has previously applied for PIP all the evidence provided will be there as well.  If the claimant has any unsuccessful applications they will also be there.  Given an hour and half to complete an assessment, thats a hell of a lot of reading, so the assessor is (Or was in 2022) advised to look at the previous report only, this is because in their report they have to comment on the previous report. 

By the shear nature of this being a review means that the claimant has an award.  You dont review unsuccessful claims, so the decision maker will know this is a review and will look at all the evidence available.  It seems pointless scanning/printing a letter thats already on the system. Which they already have.

I would go even further and suggest if you know what evidence was previously provided only provide anything new/since the tribunal.

Bluenunn_in_the_north

Muttleythefrog said:

Yeah I do agree that I would treat this like a new claim and detail all your problems with examples. I would also make sure you have electronic copy of your work so you may re-use it in future saving some effort and of course be able to refer to it if assessed on the phone etc

But I have to agree with Alice... include evidence that supports your case and therefore I would include the tribunal decision and I may even refer to it as you document your current problems. It gives a base position from which to advise/argue there have been no changes (if relevant) for an activity and makes it more likely to be considered (by a Decision Maker and/or assessor). I think with PIP you've got to think of it a bit like guiding a supermarket trolley down an aisle... it will try to veer off course all of the time so try to actively guide it so it will not ram the baked beans.... make it easier for them to draw the right conclusions while guiding them away from poor ones.

Thank you for your kind contribution.

Bluenunn_in_the_north

poppy12345 said:

Bluenunn_in_the_north said:

poppy12345 said:

Bluenunn_in_the_north said:

Rubyroobs said:

I helped someone with a PIP review and the form was sent back July 2023. They had the decision last week over 13 months later.

Wow, that is quite some back log. Thank you, I didn't know they asked so far in advance. Due to my experience I expected them to reject and stop the claim in a few weeks but then saw the date on the award letter...

Due to the backlogs I would say it's unlikely you'll have a decision before your award is due to end. If it did happen and you were refused your current award would end because any new decision overrules your current decision. 

I returned my form in November last year and still waiting. 

Thanks for the comment. May I ask where you're getting that information from? It doesn't make logical sense if they award PIP for a fixed period and then they  can renew on the date before that.

Just curious not doubting you.

Thanks.

Any new decision made will overrule the current decision, whether that was made by DWP or a Tribunal. That's always been the rules. 

Thank you for the information.

Bluenunn_in_the_north

Muttleythefrog said:

Yeah I do agree that I would treat this like a new claim and detail all your problems with examples. I would also make sure you have electronic copy of your work so you may re-use it in future saving some effort and of course be able to refer to it if assessed on the phone etc

But I have to agree with Alice... include evidence that supports your case and therefore I would include the tribunal decision and I may even refer to it as you document your current problems. It gives a base position from which to advise/argue there have been no changes (if relevant) for an activity and makes it more likely to be considered (by a Decision Maker and/or assessor). I think with PIP you've got to think of it a bit like guiding a supermarket trolley down an aisle... it will try to veer off course all of the time so try to actively guide it so it will not ram the baked beans.... make it easier for them to draw the right conclusions while guiding them away from poor ones.

I like the analogy. My trolleys always veered off and had a mind of their own so I use baskets now.

Bluenunn_in_the_north

Just for clarity, the work flow of my PIP journey in bite size chunks is as follows;

Application around 2016/7 -> rejection all stages up to UTT set original decision aside 2019 -> Covid era phone review assessment 2021 -> award stopped -> MR with new evidence -> current award 'fixed' to March 2025.