Please help - Online selling fraud

soolin

It is almost impossible to find anything on paypal now and my direct links are out of date. A lot of the information is also more readily found within the account when a claim is initiated, and I can't test that as I have no claims against me.

 However

PayPal’s Seller Protection Program

PayPal's Seller Protection program may also apply when a transaction is reversed because of a successful chargeback by a buyer because they did not authorise the card-funded payment or when a bank funded payment is reversed by the buyer’s bank.

Before ebay went to managed payments I would expect to get at least one bank chargeback a year via paypal which I always defended and always won. I believe, but cannot definitely confirm, that the majority of them were funded by paypal with neither me , the seller, or the buyer losing out. 

Although immaterial in this instance (although I realise we don't have all the info) , it is worth noting that seller protection would not apply against a bank chargeback if buyer used friends and family payment, as the address and date criteria could not be met, neither can the eligibilty of the goods be checked , as there would be no goods to protect. 

born_again

soolin said:

eskbanker said:

soolin said:

A chargeback can easily be defended on PayPal but you will need to be quick and persistent and point out their own rules to them.

You need to point out to PayPal by uploading proof of posting (not delivery) that you sent the goods to the buyer’s address as shown on PayPal within 7 days of funds being received. I would phone PayPal and point out the relevant parts of their T and Cs. 

The buyer isn't claiming for non-delivery but not as described (damaged).

The wording is slightly confusing, but if the buyer has in effect 'lost' the SNAD claim and is now making a claim from the bank then paypal seller protection comes into force. As is always being pointed out on here, paying money via paypal can break the link between the bank and the seller so paypal can intervene if seller complains. 

Going by advice on  other posts on here Usually when people make a claim from the bank for an item not being as described, they don't usually  just get their money back regardless without any input from the merchant - the merchant, in this case paypal can dispute the claim - and a seller can use paypal seller protection to do that on their behalf. It is a course worth persuing.  I may have misunderstood what I've see on here about banks generally, but i didn't think you could just charge back and be guaranteed a refund without the merchant having a right to a response. 

Seller protection on paypal against a bank chargeback requires proof of posting to the address given by paypal within a 7 day period. Seller protection against an INR though would need proof of delivery as it is a different sort of case. 

PP used to dispute all chargebacks. Then they stopped & do not dispute any. I guess they realised that it was costing them a lot in admin, as many were bounced back by the banks again, on the basis of incorrect information on the rejection. Leading to PP having to payout & then chase seller or purchaser for their money.

So sadly this leaves the OP in the situation they are in now.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Sadly SNAD is ineligible for seller protection:

https://www.paypal.com/uk/legalhub/seller-protection?locale.x=en_GB

Ineligible Items and Transactions

Item where the buyer claims (either with us or their card issuer) that the item you sent isn't what was ordered (referred to as a “Significantly Not as Described” claim).

Letter before action and small claims against the buyer is the only option here really. 

soolin

This doesn’t make sense though it is a recipe for a very easy fraud. A lot of companies I use allow PayPal to be used and I can’t  believe all I would have to do is fund it via my card (as I already do) wait for delivery then chargeback for SNAD and just get my money back. 

Only last week an order of a specialist food arrived from a small trader, £60 worth, the idea that if I was a fraudster all I would have to do is chargeback from my bank and get my money back, no questions asked. I’ve bought a few bits and bobs from private Facebook groups in the past month as well, a scammer could run amok with this. 

sheramber

If you bought direct from the company then they can challenge the chargeback.

However,  according to other posters Paypal do not challenge the chargeback.

The seller in that case would have to make a claim through the courts.

DullGreyGuy

soolin said:

PayPal's Seller Protection program may also apply when a transaction is reversed because of a successful chargeback by a buyer because they did not authorise the card-funded payment or when a bank funded payment is reversed by the buyer’s bank.

My reading of that would be that if money is reversed either by chargeback or another mechanism because the cardholder didnt authorisation the payment. IE you're protected with the is card fraud involved but not if there is another form of dispute, which makes sense as otherwise you could claim you are selling high end watches and just send a brick each time and never lose a chargeback because of the protection. 

soolin said:

This doesn’t make sense though it is a recipe for a very easy fraud. A lot of companies I use allow PayPal to be used and I can’t  believe all I would have to do is fund it via my card (as I already do) wait for delivery then chargeback for SNAD and just get my money back. 

Only last week an order of a specialist food arrived from a small trader, £60 worth, the idea that if I was a fraudster all I would have to do is chargeback from my bank and get my money back, no questions asked. I’ve bought a few bits and bobs from private Facebook groups in the past month as well, a scammer could run amok with this. 

But that is more or less the same if it wasnt being paid by PayPal... customer raises a chargeback with a picture of rotten food, how are you going to prove that you didnt send them that? Your average company doesn't photograph every order sent. 

Chargeback is a blunt tool but doesn't provide a final solution it just changes it from the buyer suing the seller to the seller suing the buyer. 

Banks do monitor the rate of chargebacks which can spot someone doing it for everything they buy. Many companies will block a customer from future purchases if they do chargebacks even if they dont pursue them. When travel reopened up in Covid but people didnt want to travel a lot did chargebacks on flights which weren't legitimate but they won. RyanAir it was noted on here several times would then not allow those customers to book new flights with them until they repaid the chargeback.

born_again

Banks do monitor the rate of chargebacks which can spot someone doing it for everything they buy. 👍

Certainly do & will shut customers down if they are doing it too frequently.