Please help - Online selling fraud

October8910

Hi all,   not sure if this is the right place but I need help.  I sold an item online to a personal buyer via Paypal, buyer requested a refund as he claimed the item was not as described and damaged, PP recalled the funds,  but after an investigation concluded in my favour as it had been proven via photographic evidence the buyer had caused the damage himself.  The funds were returning to me but a few days later taken away again as the buyer had contacted his credit card company and requested a recall.  PP have said the case is concluded and the buyer has his money back, so nothing they can do.  The buyer has made no attempt to contact me or return the item, so now has the item and his money, and I have suffered a considerable loss.  I have been made aware they are now selling the item online.  The police have said this is a civil matter and nothing they can do.  My next step would be to go to a small claims court, but I want to know where I stand, surely this is illegal.  Please help 

eskbanker

Are you saying that PayPal changed their mind and ultimately sided with the buyer?  If so, what have they said about the fate of the item?

Just to be clear, are you a trader or was it purely a private sale?

tacpot12

What has happened to the item? Has it been returned to you or is the buyer refusing to return it?

Can it be repaired? If not, your small claims court case will be for the loss in value caused by the buyer damanging it. Can you substantiate the value you place on the item, can you meet the test that will be applied in the civil courts as to whther the buyer damaged it or was it damaged in the post. The test is "on the balance of probabilities".

Do you have home insurance? If so, check to see if you have legal expenses cover. If you do, call the legal Helpline provided by your insurer before sending the buyer a letter before action. 

DE_612183

Looks like buyer did a chargeback - which is ok, but then the vendor can dispute the chargeback - not sure if this is down to you or paypal.

how much are we talking?

DullGreyGuy

October8910 said:

Hi all,   not sure if this is the right place but I need help.  I sold an item online to a personal buyer via Paypal, buyer requested a refund as he claimed the item was not as described and damaged, PP recalled the funds,  but after an investigation concluded in my favour as it had been proven via photographic evidence the buyer had caused the damage himself.  The funds were returning to me but a few days later taken away again as the buyer had contacted his credit card company and requested a recall.  PP have said the case is concluded and the buyer has his money back, so nothing they can do.  The buyer has made no attempt to contact me or return the item, so now has the item and his money, and I have suffered a considerable loss.  I have been made aware they are now selling the item online.  The police have said this is a civil matter and nothing they can do.  My next step would be to go to a small claims court, but I want to know where I stand, surely this is illegal.  Please help 

It's a common problem that many companies face all the time when they feel they supplied goods/services in good faith and the customer does a chargeback against the payment. Many consider the chargeback process is loaded against the seller but a bank isn't a court of law so their decisions aren't legally binding, it just moves it from the buyer suing the seller to the seller suing the buyer. 

Your main option is to litigate against the buyer 

A lot of the law talks about intent which can be hard to prove, criminal law (ie something is illegal) also has a higher burden of proof than civil law (beyond reasonable doubt -v- on the balance of probabilities). Police generally have more serious crime to deal with and believe the civil courts will adequately provide redress hence the "its a civil matter".

soolin

A chargeback can easily be defended on PayPal but you will need to be quick and persistent and point out their own rules to them.

You need to point out to PayPal by uploading proof of posting (not delivery) that you sent the goods to the buyer’s address as shown on PayPal within 7 days of funds being received. I would phone PayPal and point out the relevant parts of their T and Cs. 

eskbanker

soolin said:

A chargeback can easily be defended on PayPal but you will need to be quick and persistent and point out their own rules to them.

You need to point out to PayPal by uploading proof of posting (not delivery) that you sent the goods to the buyer’s address as shown on PayPal within 7 days of funds being received. I would phone PayPal and point out the relevant parts of their T and Cs. 

The buyer isn't claiming for non-delivery but not as described (damaged).

born_again

DE_612183 said:

Looks like buyer did a chargeback - which is ok, but then the vendor can dispute the chargeback - not sure if this is down to you or paypal.

how much are we talking?

It's PayPal that would dispute. Something they no longer do.

soolin

eskbanker said:

soolin said:

A chargeback can easily be defended on PayPal but you will need to be quick and persistent and point out their own rules to them.

You need to point out to PayPal by uploading proof of posting (not delivery) that you sent the goods to the buyer’s address as shown on PayPal within 7 days of funds being received. I would phone PayPal and point out the relevant parts of their T and Cs. 

The buyer isn't claiming for non-delivery but not as described (damaged).

The wording is slightly confusing, but if the buyer has in effect 'lost' the SNAD claim and is now making a claim from the bank then paypal seller protection comes into force. As is always being pointed out on here, paying money via paypal can break the link between the bank and the seller so paypal can intervene if seller complains. 

Going by advice on  other posts on here Usually when people make a claim from the bank for an item not being as described, they don't usually  just get their money back regardless without any input from the merchant - the merchant, in this case paypal can dispute the claim - and a seller can use paypal seller protection to do that on their behalf. It is a course worth persuing.  I may have misunderstood what I've see on here about banks generally, but i didn't think you could just charge back and be guaranteed a refund without the merchant having a right to a response. 

Seller protection on paypal against a bank chargeback requires proof of posting to the address given by paypal within a 7 day period. Seller protection against an INR though would need proof of delivery as it is a different sort of case. 

FlorayG

soolin said:

Seller protection on paypal against a bank chargeback requires proof of posting to the address given by paypal within a 7 day period. Seller protection against an INR though would need proof of delivery as it is a different sort of case. 

Clearly there is proof of delivery as the buyer says the item is damaged

soolin

FlorayG said:

soolin said:

Seller protection on paypal against a bank chargeback requires proof of posting to the address given by paypal within a 7 day period. Seller protection against an INR though would need proof of delivery as it is a different sort of case. 

Clearly there is proof of delivery as the buyer says the item is damaged

Which is immaterial as proof of delivery is not needed in an SNAD claim. However for full seller protection against a chargeback seller needs proof of posting as that will show the address to which an item was sent and a date- both of which need to match the guidance of eligibility.