SPRAY FOAM INSULATION PROBLEMS mis sold / cold called/ mould

kalinig

This is a very shortened version!
I have elderly parents living in the UK.( I'm in Australia) I recently visited them to find their 2 back bedroom ceilings covered in mould. 
The company ( not sure if I can name?) cold called my dad ( he has dementia) made an appointment. Mum didn't even know they were coming until they turned up. It was an easy sale for them against 2 pensioners. They already had thick roof insulation, so really didn't need anymore insulation work done. The installation is pretty shoddy, the foam covers the eves and there is zero ventilation up in the loft now, hence the mould below. I have a builder friend who checked it out and said that the ventilation was covered with the foam.
They did send out 2 employees to allegedly check out the roof. they cut away 2 small areas in the eves and went on their way, leaving all the crap up in the loft and trampled the extractor hose from the bathroom.
I have complained to the company, back and forth with numerous emails and I am getting nowhere with them. I'm at the end of my tether trying to help my parents from so far away, I spent 6 weeks trying to sort stuff out while I was there ,but I feel I'm going around in circles.
If anyone can give me any advise or direction I would be so grateful.

ThisIsWeird

Wow, of all the examples I've heard about, that is the most nuts. Clearly these guys haven't a clue about roof construction and ventilation requirements.
Do your folks have Legal Protection in their house insurance?
What information do you have of the selling process? What was the supposed 'purpose' of this foam (other than to make money for the company...)? What paperwork is there?
And could you confirm, this is a conventionally built house - is it even a bungalow? - with a pitched roof with unconverted loft space, normal loft insulation between the ceiling joists, and exposed roof rafters that have been infilled with foam? Right down to the eaves?!
If so, then the first simple fact here is, that foam can not act as 'house insulation' in such a common and typical loft design. These loft spaces must be kept well ventilated to the outside in order for them to avoid damage from condensation (such as what you are noticing), so it follows that a well ventilated space like this will be largely at outside ambient temps, so freezing cold in winter, stupid hot in summer. Adding foam to the underside of the rafters, which is above this ventilated area, will barely make a jot of difference to the house below, which is separated by the correct location of effective insulation - the ceiling.
So, to refer to, or sell, this product as anything like 'house insulation', or to suggest energy savings, would imv be clear misselling for a start.
(Ironically, in your parent's case it may have reduced the house's energy loss, but at the cost of its ultimate destruction.)
The misselling was compounded in this case by the sheer ignorance and incompetence of the installer.
This is the worst case I've heard about. Your parent's loft must be very humid indeed.
What to do? You need sound legal advice. I'd suggest that the case itself is as airtight as your folk's loft, and most solicitors should rub their hands in anticipation. 
So, Legal Protection?
And contact your local Tradings Standards - explain the whole situation, including your parent's vulnerability. 
It is not enough for the eaves to be cleared - this really all needs to be removed, and that is a large job.
Take lots of photos of the ceilings, and the actual insulation, including the bits they cut away, and even the crushed vent pipe - was that punctured at all? If so, it will be adding concentrated water vapour directly to that space. 
Ultimately, this sounds like the sort of case a good local paper could take on - it has all the ingredients.
But first - LegProt. If not, then unless you have the money, you may need a no-win no-fee type.

Bookworm105

@ThisIsWeird what I don't understand about sprayfoam is why is it still being sold when everyone now says it is wrong?

I deliberately chose to have it done many years ago in 1950's house that had originally been built without and felt/sarking layer under the roof tiles. A previous owner had stapled a sort of silver thin sheeting between each rafter to, I assume, cut down on drafts blowing through the tiles, but that "sheeting" had started to split

I also had a roof tile slip which frightened me a lot as it fell on a pathway.

The sprayfoam solved the tile slip problem and  of course stops the wind.

I now discover that the whole lot will need to be removed if I ever sell up. Was that mis-selling? I don't think I will look to blame someone else for my decision at the time, but I accept that science now says I made a very bad decision that is going to rebound on me in the future. But hey, at the time I did I could not afford to have the roof replaced, as that is what it undoubtedly needed as shown by those properties that were still council having had totally new roofs. So in effect I have "simply" bought myself more time to save for a new roof.

@kaling - sorry I cannot help re your problems, bit in the context of your parents it does sound like they have a case for being mis-sold.

Albermarle

what I don't understand about sprayfoam is why is it still being sold when everyone now says it is wrong?

AIUI, the installers still claim it is a good product if installed properly in the right location, and that the real problem is not spray foam itself, but cowboy companies. They claim the mortgage companies, surveyors etc have overreacted to a 'few' problems.
Also I think they can point to many homes with it installed with no issues.
Maybe even in your home the spray foam has not caused any actual issues ?
I think also it can be used with no problems in some new builds and some non roof locations, loft conversions etc.
Maybe it will get banned one day though.

ThisIsWeird

Bookworm105 said:

I deliberately chose to have it done many years ago in 1950's house that had originally been built without and felt/sarking layer under the roof tiles. A previous owner had stapled a sort of silver thin sheeting between each rafter to, I assume, cut down on drafts blowing through the tiles, but that "sheeting" had started to split

I also had a roof tile slip which frightened me a lot as it fell on a pathway.

The sprayfoam solved the tile slip problem and  of course stops the wind.

I now discover that the whole lot will need to be removed if I ever sell up. Was that mis-selling? I don't think I will look to blame someone else for my decision at the time, but I accept that science now says I made a very bad decision that is going to rebound on me in the future.

Hi Bookworm, I am in no way an authority on this, but just have the usual understanding of roof construction, and the need for ventilation in the open-loft types of home - ie, the vast majority.

In your case, it was very likely a good move, since you had no felt or sarking, and rattling tiles! The foam secured your tiles and kept your roof intact, delaying you the considerable expense of having to have it recovered. And, when the time comes that it needs recovering, the presence of the foam won't matter a jot - it'll be disposed off along with the old tiles. So, yours was seemingly done for 'structural' reasons, and not for 'insulation'.

On that point, the foam is still performing that service for you, and if you remove it now, it will not only cost you a large sum, but the chances are that many tiles will be lost in the process and the buyer's report will insist you need a new roof sooner rather than later. So, personally, I'd leave it - but acknowledge that a new roof covering will likely be needed in the medium term, as you always knew it would. A possible issue with your roof, is that the tile battens could be harbouring trapped rain water due to the foam, and slowly rotting away, but there's nothing to suggest that this is actually the case - it's equally likely that the foam is keeping it watertight! A concern - with all foamed roofs - is that the rafters are no longer ventilated; you don't want them rotting away. A thought on this - I cannot see any reason why a thin pie-slice of foam cannot be removed alongside each rafter to expose their sides. This would just require a longish bladed instrument, cut down against the rafter sides to expose them, and then at an angle from an inch out - remove the slice.

You say your loft was very draughty? But, I bet it was dry! It really doesn't matter how windy it is up there, as it's entirely separate from the house - which is insulated by adding material to the loft floor.

This only occurred to me a few years back, when I was fetching stuff down from t'in-law's recently-built Persimmon bungalow. It was winter, and the loft was bludy freezing, with a searing icy blast cutting through me. I thought this must be 'wrong', and expected to find the cardboard boxes to be damp and mouldy. Of course, they weren't - they were bone dry, because of the wind! Their house below was cosy and easy to heat, with a thick layer of loft insulation on the ceiling. That's 'insulation'! If my in-laws had added foam to the undersides of their roof, it would have made not a jot of difference to their fuel bills, and very likely have caused long-term problems. It may have reduced the wildest temp swings up there over the year, but, big deal - that's not an issue to anything! But potentially rotting timbers most certainly are.

Back to Kalineg - that is a very extreme example of what can go wrong.

If a foaming seller claims that coating your under-roof will cut your energy bills, then suggest they coat the gun's nozzle with vaseline, 'cos you are going to sti...

FreeBear

Albermarle said:

what I don't understand about sprayfoam is why is it still being sold when everyone now says it is wrong?

AIUI, the installers still claim it is a good product if installed properly in the right location, and that the real problem is not spray foam itself, but cowboy companies. They claim the mortgage companies, surveyors etc have overreacted to a 'few' problems.
Also I think they can point to many homes with it installed with no issues.
Maybe even in your home the spray foam has not caused any actual issues ?
I think also it can be used with no problems in some new builds and some non roof locations, loft conversions etc.
Maybe it will get banned one day though.

Spray foam is an import from America where it is used a lot. For loft spaces, it is normally sprayed in to the space between ceiling joists and not on the underside of the roof. Done this way, it insulates at the point of heat loss and doesn't interfere with natural ventilation of the roof space. But, unlike UK housing, properties over there are designed with spray foam insulation from the outset, and the whole structure has a lifespan of 50 years or so.

The Property Care Association (purveyors of all the questionable and potentially damaging "cures" for damp, etc) have been campaigning & lobbying, claiming that spray foam is safe. Thanks to the efforts of the PCA, the government announced in June 2022 that they had no plans to intervene (primarily in disputes between home owners and mortgage providers that down valued a property). Instead they point to consumer legislation and CAB to provide recourse for compensation.

stuart45

It's done a lot between the rafters as well in the USA, but the roofs are boarded out on top of the rafters, which stops the foam sticking to the tiles, or affecting the membrane. HVAC systems help condition the the space, so damp issues are unlikely.

ThisIsWeird

In the majority of cases seen on here and similar forums, it's not only potentially harmful, but utterly pointless.
In other words, a scam. 

MysteryMe

Let's get back to basics, if you father has a formal diagnosis for Dementia then it is a strong argument to say he did not have the mental capacity to understand the contract that he presumably signed. So the bottom line is it's almost certainly been mis sold. The fact it's been incorrectly installed is an added "bonus."

I assume there is some kind of Power of Attorney in place?

The person with POA for your father should contact the Citizens Advice Consumer Service.

Reputable businesses have protocols in place with regards customers who are deemed vulnerable. Selling expensive products to someone with Dementia is not the act of a reputable business and cold callers flogging spray foam loft insulation is another pretty big red flag.

The phone number for the Citizens advice service is 0808 223 113. Explain what has happened, ask for advice and also to be referred to Trading Standards.

Edited to add I would also strongly suggest some kind of call blocker is installed as your parents telephone number is likely on what is unfortunately termed a suckers list.

FreeBear

MysteryMe said: Reputable businesses have protocols in place with regards customers who are deemed vulnerable. Selling expensive products to someone with Dementia is not the act of a reputable business and cold callers flogging spray foam loft insulation is another pretty big red flag.

And rags like the Daily Mail would have a field day with the story...

Albermarle

Although these companies tend to come and go under different guises, so sometimes can be difficult to find someone to blame.