My landlord claims to have never received my notice to end the tenancy

RHemmings

jacko552 said:

Some confounding factors which have been discovered since - the house has been up on Rightmove to rent since at least the 1st July, with the Let Available Date listed at 09/08/24 and the estate agent or landlord has been round in the past week and taken pictures for Rightmove without our permission. I feel like this tips the scales slightly more in our favour?

Screenshot - now! Not to send to us, but to retain for evidence. To me this would indicate that you have been misled and I personally (not a lawyer alert) think it considerably tips the scales in your favour. Such that if I were now in your shoes I would send the screenshots with dates highlighted to the landlord saying that it is clear that they recived the notice. And that hence you rescind the notice for the 9th of September and will leave on the 9th of August as previously notified. 

jacko552

@theartfullodger you are correct, I pasted the wrong clause - the appropriate clause was 9.1

We agree that any notices given under or in relation to this Agreement which are to be given in writing may be served on the Landlord either by being left at the address in Clause 9.2 of this Agreement or by being sent to that address by first class post. Notices left at the address are deemed received the next working day. Notices sent by first class post are deemed received two working days after posting.

MeteredOut

jacko552 said:

@theartfullodger you are correct, I pasted the wrong clause - the appropriate clause was 9.1

We agree that any notices given under or in relation to this Agreement which are to be given in writing may be served on the Landlord either by being left at the address in Clause 9.2 of this Agreement or by being sent to that address by first class post. Notices left at the address are deemed received the next working day. Notices sent by first class post are deemed received two working days after posting.

There you go. You said you'd send it, you sent it by first class post (even though you didn't thereafter tell him you had sent it). It is deemed to have been received as per that clause. Nothing states is must be sent registered.

And then you have the listing on RightMove.

(that's assuming you sent it to the address in 9.2)

jacko552

Some updates as Im not sure what to do. I have since sent in a written request for our deposit back, as well as our intention to rescind the second notice we sent which stated we were leaving on the later date of 9th September. I have since received this email (My comments in Bold):

You may wish to call me to discuss the action you have taken as once received we may not be in a position to recover the current position.

We are not in receipt of notice from you other than (the undated ) notice received by us on 8th August 2024.  If you can provide evidence of any earlier service of  notice then we will consider such evidence.

We are not in possession of the keys to the property and have no record of them being delivered to our service address (clause9).  Again if you can provide evidence of the delivery of the property keys to the service address then we will consider this. I posted the keys through the letterbox of the property after enquiring a number of times how the landlord would like them. Nowhere in the contract does it say that they must be returned to the landlord's service address.

You will be aware that unless I serve notice to you I am not permitted (emergencies excepted) to enter the property without such notice.  I can confirm I have served no such notice and have not entered the property other than when you have been present. Photos were definitely taken inside the property after we were half moved out but still in our original notice period, around the 7th August, when we were not there.

We do have a prospective tenant for the property and if you rescind the notice we hold we will not be able to proceed with that tenancy and the property will remain under your existing contractual conditions. We have currently postponed the prospective tenant given your stance on this matter.

We can of course gain possession of the property using the usual means available to us and will seek to use these as or when they are available to us. In our experience this can come at considerable cost to you the tenant, and although we want to avoid this we will pursue any debt due to us using all of the protection granted us under the Housing Act(s)

I have attached a deed of surrender to this email and will accept this is properly completed, witnessed (by a non family member) and delivered to our service address, we will then in turn serve notice to visit the property to carry out a final inspection, utility meter reads and key recovery (if as you suggest the keys are in the property).  Following this we will close down the property accounts and send you the final bill for payment.

We have not CCd this or any other mail to any deposit scheme as this is not our process.  You are at liberty to do so if you feel this helps.

We are unlikely to require the services provided by any of the deposit schemes in your matter as we expect if it is not settled amicably, as we would hope then it would proceed to Possession Hearings rather than the deposit schemes.  They would be involved but usually (in pour experience) after the Court process has been completed.

With all that said, I feel like I shouldn't sign anything - if I sign the deed of surrender, does this not just imply that I am indeed still the tenant? We've not lived at the property since the 6th July! My request for the deposit back was sent on the 27th August, so by my maths he has until the 6th September to give it back to me before myDeposits steps in, but does anyone have any experience with a landlord arguing that a tenancy has not ended? I feel like the amount of evidence that he knew we intended to move out on August 9th is sufficient, but the uncertainty isn't making me feel great.

Bookworm105

so does clause 9 exist or not?

housebuyer143

jacko552 said:

Some updates as Im not sure what to do. I have since sent in a written request for our deposit back, as well as our intention to rescind the second notice we sent which stated we were leaving on the later date of 9th September. I have since received this email (My comments in Bold):

You may wish to call me to discuss the action you have taken as once received we may not be in a position to recover the current position.

We are not in receipt of notice from you other than (the undated ) notice received by us on 8th August 2024.  If you can provide evidence of any earlier service of  notice then we will consider such evidence.

We are not in possession of the keys to the property and have no record of them being delivered to our service address (clause9).  Again if you can provide evidence of the delivery of the property keys to the service address then we will consider this. I posted the keys through the letterbox of the property after enquiring a number of times how the landlord would like them. Nowhere in the contract does it say that they must be returned to the landlord's service address.

You will be aware that unless I serve notice to you I am not permitted (emergencies excepted) to enter the property without such notice.  I can confirm I have served no such notice and have not entered the property other than when you have been present. Photos were definitely taken inside the property after we were half moved out but still in our original notice period, around the 7th August, when we were not there.

We do have a prospective tenant for the property and if you rescind the notice we hold we will not be able to proceed with that tenancy and the property will remain under your existing contractual conditions. We have currently postponed the prospective tenant given your stance on this matter.

We can of course gain possession of the property using the usual means available to us and will seek to use these as or when they are available to us. In our experience this can come at considerable cost to you the tenant, and although we want to avoid this we will pursue any debt due to us using all of the protection granted us under the Housing Act(s)

I have attached a deed of surrender to this email and will accept this is properly completed, witnessed (by a non family member) and delivered to our service address, we will then in turn serve notice to visit the property to carry out a final inspection, utility meter reads and key recovery (if as you suggest the keys are in the property).  Following this we will close down the property accounts and send you the final bill for payment.

We have not CCd this or any other mail to any deposit scheme as this is not our process.  You are at liberty to do so if you feel this helps.

We are unlikely to require the services provided by any of the deposit schemes in your matter as we expect if it is not settled amicably, as we would hope then it would proceed to Possession Hearings rather than the deposit schemes.  They would be involved but usually (in pour experience) after the Court process has been completed.

With all that said, I feel like I shouldn't sign anything - if I sign the deed of surrender, does this not just imply that I am indeed still the tenant? We've not lived at the property since the 6th July! My request for the deposit back was sent on the 27th August, so by my maths he has until the 6th September to give it back to me before myDeposits steps in, but does anyone have any experience with a landlord arguing that a tenancy has not ended? I feel like the amount of evidence that he knew we intended to move out on August 9th is sufficient, but the uncertainty isn't making me feel great.

I'm just going up say, your landlord sounds nasty and very threatening. He's got a perspective tenant but if you argue over the dates then he's going to drop them and continue your tenancy! 
If you don't agree he's just going to bypass my deposits and sue you 😑😑 

At first I thought maybe he didn't get it and that was fair enough, but from the reply here it really sounds like he probably did get it and is trying to get you to give in. 

No advice I am afraid but refusing to use the free arbitration service from my deposits screams to meet that something he's saying isn't right.

silvercar

jacko552 said:

Some updates as Im not sure what to do. I have since sent in a written request for our deposit back, as well as our intention to rescind the second notice we sent which stated we were leaving on the later date of 9th September. I have since received this email (My comments in Bold):

You may wish to call me to discuss the action you have taken as once received we may not be in a position to recover the current position.

We are not in receipt of notice from you other than (the undated ) notice received by us on 8th August 2024.  If you can provide evidence of any earlier service of  notice then we will consider such evidence.

We are not in possession of the keys to the property and have no record of them being delivered to our service address (clause9).  Again if you can provide evidence of the delivery of the property keys to the service address then we will consider this. I posted the keys through the letterbox of the property after enquiring a number of times how the landlord would like them. Nowhere in the contract does it say that they must be returned to the landlord's service address.

You will be aware that unless I serve notice to you I am not permitted (emergencies excepted) to enter the property without such notice.  I can confirm I have served no such notice and have not entered the property other than when you have been present. Photos were definitely taken inside the property after we were half moved out but still in our original notice period, around the 7th August, when we were not there.

We do have a prospective tenant for the property and if you rescind the notice we hold we will not be able to proceed with that tenancy and the property will remain under your existing contractual conditions. We have currently postponed the prospective tenant given your stance on this matter.

We can of course gain possession of the property using the usual means available to us and will seek to use these as or when they are available to us. In our experience this can come at considerable cost to you the tenant, and although we want to avoid this we will pursue any debt due to us using all of the protection granted us under the Housing Act(s)

I have attached a deed of surrender to this email and will accept this is properly completed, witnessed (by a non family member) and delivered to our service address, we will then in turn serve notice to visit the property to carry out a final inspection, utility meter reads and key recovery (if as you suggest the keys are in the property).  Following this we will close down the property accounts and send you the final bill for payment.

We have not CCd this or any other mail to any deposit scheme as this is not our process.  You are at liberty to do so if you feel this helps.

We are unlikely to require the services provided by any of the deposit schemes in your matter as we expect if it is not settled amicably, as we would hope then it would proceed to Possession Hearings rather than the deposit schemes.  They would be involved but usually (in pour experience) after the Court process has been completed.

With all that said, I feel like I shouldn't sign anything - if I sign the deed of surrender, does this not just imply that I am indeed still the tenant? We've not lived at the property since the 6th July! My request for the deposit back was sent on the 27th August, so by my maths he has until the 6th September to give it back to me before myDeposits steps in, but does anyone have any experience with a landlord arguing that a tenancy has not ended? I feel like the amount of evidence that he knew we intended to move out on August 9th is sufficient, but the uncertainty isn't making me feel great.

To protect yourself, I would be inclined to write a letter. Say that you are mystified by some of his responses, but this letter is to confirm that (a) I have left the property and that (b) you have already given notice on X date. That way, if he tries to argue that he can’t access the property you have given written notice that you have vacated and that you have previously ended the tenancy. At worst he could claim the date of receipt as the date he could legally access the property. At best, it reverts the the date you gave on the previous notice. It would remove the option for him to say he still cannot access the property.

housebuyer143

Thinking on this - he's found a new tenant... Did he notify you he was doing the viewings? He probably should have if you are still in tenancy.
When did he do the viewings to find this new tenant? He would have noticed the keys in the property if they went around recently. Did you tell him you had left the keys in the property? 

As the other poster said, reaffirmed that you have left the property and returned the keys on said date and that you have surrendered the tenancy as per your previous notice 9th August. You are not revoking your notice, you are reaffirming that you left the property on 9th August and recommended he proceed with the new tenant asap. 

Btw, I would never recommend putting your keys in the letterbox. So many tenants did this while I worked at the letting agent and we didn't have spare keys so they ended up paying for a locksmith out of the deposit. 

In future, I would email the notice as well as post it because you can show receipt then in one form and ensure you get confirmation of the end of tenancy date. 

jacko552

Bookworm105 said:

so does clause 9 exist or not?

Clause 9 just talks about how to give notices:

9.0 Notices

9.1  We agree that any notices given under or in relation to this Agreement which are to be given in writing may be served on the Landlord either by being left at the address in Clause 9.2 of this Agreement or by being sent to that address by first class post. Notices left at the address are deemed received the next working day. Notices sent by first class post are deemed received two working days after posting.

9.2 - [The Landlord's Address]

silvercar said:

To protect yourself, I would be inclined to write a letter. Say that you are mystified by some of his responses, but this letter is to confirm that (a) I have left the property and that (b) you have already given notice on X date. That way, if he tries to argue that he can’t access the property you have given written notice that you have vacated and that you have previously ended the tenancy. At worst he could claim the date of receipt as the date he could legally access the property. At best, it reverts the the date you gave on the previous notice. It would remove the option for him to say he still cannot access the property.

Regarding the bit I've bolded, surely if he was acting in good faith, he would give me 48 hours notice that he was going to enter the property to get the keys? In any case, I think I will send a letter just to be sure, even though he has responded to the emails I sent.

I'm thinking to also include that we would sign the deed of surrender on the condition that we pay none of the additonal money he claims we owe for rent after we vacated the property. I know he will just say no, you owe me the money, but would that at least show that we're trying to work with him to any future court?

housebuyer143 said:

Thinking on this - he's found a new tenant... Did he notify you he was doing the viewings? He probably should have if you are still in tenancy.
When did he do the viewings to find this new tenant? He would have noticed the keys in the property if they went around recently. Did you tell him you had left the keys in the property? 

As the other poster said, reaffirmed that you have left the property and returned the keys on said date and that you have surrendered the tenancy as per your previous notice 9th August. You are not revoking your notice, you are reaffirming that you left the property on 9th August and recommended he proceed with the new tenant asap. 

Btw, I would never recommend putting your keys in the letterbox. So many tenants did this while I worked at the letting agent and we didn't have spare keys so they ended up paying for a locksmith out of the deposit. 

In future, I would email the notice as well as post it because you can show receipt then in one form and ensure you get confirmation of the end of tenancy date. 

His letting agent let us know about viewings that happened before we moved out, but the last one we were informed of was the 7th August, which seems like a pretty long time for a prospective tenant to hang on in this rental market. I've just texted our old neighbours to see if there have been any viewings they've noticed since.

Regarding putting the keys through the letterbox, I knew the landlord had keys and definitely knew the letting agents did since they were doing viewings (with permission) when we weren't there.

EDIT: I just heard back from our old neighbours and it seems the landlord went to the house a few weeks ago, at least into the back garden and possibly into the house itself.