Liable for intercom costs if don't use it?

eddddy

Just to clarify - arguments like "I get no benefit" and "it's a convenience, not a necessity" etc are irrelevant.

It's what the lease says that matters.

In simple terms, if your lease says you have to contribute to the costs of the intercom, then you have to contribute to the cost. Essentially, the lease is a binding legal contract.


The legal position is that you should have read the lease to find out your responsibilities and liabilities before buying the leasehold flat. If you didn't like the list of liabilities, you shouldn't have bought the flat.

FreeBear

Smith12sarah said:

theoretica said:

How does an intercom cost £40k for 24 properties?  I think an intercom is a standard expectation now - but does this have bells and whistles?  It seems to me that the point about general security for the block is a good one (and think the mobile phone thing doesn't work so well with the mail/deliveries) but that the security benefit you would get from a basic system, and you could argue strongly against paying for upgrades and extra features.

unfortunately is has to be cloud based and totally re-wired, I've already spoken to the contractors who quoted in the S20 information.

No intercom/entry system has to be cloud based. If the internet goes down, there is a repeat of the CrowdStrike fiasco, of the cloud provider pulls the plug, does the system keep running ?

What benefits are there to you as a leaseholder, does a cloud served intercom provide ?

Who will be the data controller, and what guarantees do they provide that the system won't be hacked ?

eddddy

Smith12sarah said:

unfortunately is has to be cloud based and totally re-wired, I've already spoken to the contractors who quoted in the S20 information.

It depends what questions you asked - but if the questions were something like "Do we really need your cloud based system that costs £40k?"

They're unlikely to say "No - you can get a 'conventional' system from another supplier that would cost £20k".


But 'cloud based' implies wireless. If it's wired to every flat, what is the cloud used for?



The cloud based intercom systems I've seen work like this:

• A visitor outside presses a button on the intercom box

• The intercom box contacts its cloud based server (over the mobile phone network)

• The cloud based server calls the occupant's mobile phone or landline, or sends an alert to the occupant's  mobile phone app

• The occupant can then speak to the visitor via the occupant's mobile phone, landline or app (and/or view a video connection using the app)

• The occupant presses a number on their phone keypad (or a button in the app) to open the door

So the system is completely wireless (apart from a power supply for the intercom box).

Smith12sarah

eddddy said:

Whether you have to contribute to the cost of intercom replacement depends on what your lease says.

It's probably unhelpful to look at other tribunal decisions, because the wording of those leases is very likely to be different from your lease.  The tribunal will concentrate on analysing the wording of your specific lease.


So, for example, the tribunal will carefully consider this sentence from your lease:

"the landlord shall maintain, repair, renew..... electrical apparatus..... under and upon the building, except those that serve exclusively an individual flat in the building."

... and other wording in your lease, to decide whether the wording means that you have to contribute to the cost.



FWIW, based on that sentence alone, it sounds like you do have to contribute. Because the intercom is electrical apparatus which does not exclusively serve an individual flat.

(But did an intercom exist when the lease was first granted?)

the management company can provide no records of when the intercom was installed, which is good news for me!  Today I also received the detail behind the quotes for the work.  It lists each of the 4 blocks with different sums of money and in my block of 8 flats, lists costs for everything x 6 (as two are ground floor so don't need anything).  

I think the above two items are pretty strong arguments for my case now, fingers crossed!

Smith12sarah

eddddy said:

Just to clarify - arguments like "I get no benefit" and "it's a convenience, not a necessity" etc are irrelevant.

It's what the lease says that matters.

In simple terms, if your lease says you have to contribute to the costs of the intercom, then you have to contribute to the cost. Essentially, the lease is a binding legal contract.


The legal position is that you should have read the lease to find out your responsibilities and liabilities before buying the leasehold flat. If you didn't like the list of liabilities, you shouldn't have bought the flat.

if read the detail on my post, it quotes the lease.  no mention of intercom.  hence why it's a grey area.

Smith12sarah

FreeBear said:

Smith12sarah said:

theoretica said:

How does an intercom cost £40k for 24 properties?  I think an intercom is a standard expectation now - but does this have bells and whistles?  It seems to me that the point about general security for the block is a good one (and think the mobile phone thing doesn't work so well with the mail/deliveries) but that the security benefit you would get from a basic system, and you could argue strongly against paying for upgrades and extra features.

unfortunately is has to be cloud based and totally re-wired, I've already spoken to the contractors who quoted in the S20 information.

No intercom/entry system has to be cloud based. If the internet goes down, there is a repeat of the CrowdStrike fiasco, of the cloud provider pulls the plug, does the system keep running ?

What benefits are there to you as a leaseholder, does a cloud served intercom provide ?

Who will be the data controller, and what guarantees do they provide that the system won't be hacked ?

FreeBear said:

Smith12sarah said:

theoretica said:

How does an intercom cost £40k for 24 properties?  I think an intercom is a standard expectation now - but does this have bells and whistles?  It seems to me that the point about general security for the block is a good one (and think the mobile phone thing doesn't work so well with the mail/deliveries) but that the security benefit you would get from a basic system, and you could argue strongly against paying for upgrades and extra features.

unfortunately is has to be cloud based and totally re-wired, I've already spoken to the contractors who quoted in the S20 information.

No intercom/entry system has to be cloud based. If the internet goes down, there is a repeat of the CrowdStrike fiasco, of the cloud provider pulls the plug, does the system keep running ?

What benefits are there to you as a leaseholder, does a cloud served intercom provide ?

Who will be the data controller, and what guarantees do they provide that the system won't be hacked ?

My issue isn't around the cloud based thing, just whether i should pay towards the intercom.  Reason it is cloud is a bigger story!

RHemmings

Is the intercom system being replaced because it's not working? Or is it working, but it is still being replaced. You've mentioned before that it's being replaced like for like, but then you mention 'cloud based'. Is the old intercom also cloud based? 

anselld

RHemmings said:

Is the intercom system being replaced because it's not working? Or is it working, but it is still being replaced. You've mentioned before that it's being replaced like for like, but then you mention 'cloud based'. Is the old intercom also cloud based? 

Presumably there is a perceived problem with the original wiring, eg damaged by rodents, which would mean the cost and disruption of fully rewiring rather than just replacing the active units would be prohibitive

LightFlare

without an intercom there is a high likelihood of visitors and delivery people disturbing you as you are conveniently on the ground floor.

management charges apply to the whole building irrespective of you position within.

think of it like people who live on unadopted roads but still have to pay the same amount of council tax or anyone who pays income tax but has no children so why should they co tribute to schools etc etc

if you are challenging anything, you need to pick your argument carefully “but I do t get any benefit” won’t work but “we weren’t sent the proper notice and given the opportunity to query the installation cost” might be more so

RHemmings

anselld said:

RHemmings said:

Is the intercom system being replaced because it's not working? Or is it working, but it is still being replaced. You've mentioned before that it's being replaced like for like, but then you mention 'cloud based'. Is the old intercom also cloud based? 

Presumably there is a perceived problem with the original wiring, eg damaged by rodents, which would mean the cost and disruption of fully rewiring rather than just replacing the active units would be prohibitive

In the legal example I linked to, the intercom was replaced with a new like for like one even though the previous intercom was working fine. Hence, there is a precedent for a management company replacing an intercom when it wasn't necessary.