Mystery leak in ceiling

Theleak250

I have a leak from the flat above. It drips within the bedroom ceiling, you can hear the drips hitting my ceiling and there are small stains forming. This only happens when they use the bathroom. But the leak is just outside the bountry of the bathroom. Direclty above the leak is a bedroom, and no radiator etc near it. It seems there is something in the void.

The landlord of the above flat has had a plumber out twice trying to find this leak. I had the landlord in my properly, they turned on all the tapes above and it didn't leak. It only leaks sometimes at morning or night. Not in the day. He states a plumber has resealed all the pipes in the bathroom, yet the leak remains. I am at a loss as to what to do next, I don't want to cut holes in my ceiling trying to find the source. Someone has suggested I get a small camera and drill a hole into the ceiling, and put the camera in to see if there is a cause. You can buy a camera to do this about £35.

I just wonder what the best way forward is, if I use the camera and find the leak, it can record and I can send him the video as proof. Or should I say to him it’s still leaking and leave him to find the cause? I just want the issue resolved, but obviosuly I will not pay to get his pipes fixed if I find a leaking pipe in the ceiling. It has been going on for six months now as I had trouble getting hold of him to start with.

Thank you

FreeBear

Theleak250 said: Someone has suggested I get a small camera and drill a hole into the ceiling, and put the camera in to see if there is a cause. You can buy a camera to do this about £35.

You can get suitable cameras for a lot less than £35. A quick search for "usb endoscope" will turn up any number from around £6. Plug one in to a phone or laptop, and you can record video or capture stills (depending on what app/software is installed).

gm0

The issue may not be where the drip is.  Fairly common to run along something and then drop.  Soil stack joints.  Bends.  Joints on vertical runs.  Which can flow through floor to floor fire expanding fire seals sometimes.  And across a not quite level concrete pad and then "drip" a distance away. 

Have seen this "not obviously below" version with an embedded in wall shower cartridge leaking to the rear with nothing visible to the front. Down behind wall. Across pad to edge.  To floor below.  Across pad (following the fall dripping onto plasterboard below according to flow and quantity. Clean water. 

To check specific shower floor drains (or others) as a source you could with the neighbour - flush some detection dye and watch it turn up or not.  Like the council use to detect road drain blocks and issues where the layout is less than clear.

Given the situation.  They will claim post plumber checking bathroom not to have been negligent.  And may slow walk destroying the bathroom to dig out  the wall to explore further especially if tiled.  I would be resistant if the alternative of looking up through a plasterboard hole with less and easier damage also exists.

So you perhaps need to localise it. De facto.  

Be clear to them that you will recover diagnosis costs from whoever ultimately is responsible - them or freeholder.  And they are free to do something else if they prefer that.  And if not.  Open up some ceiling plasterboard - it's just easier and moves things along.

Also be prepared for the possibility that the faulty plumbing is not demised to the flat. i.e. it turns out to be a "shared" vertical pipe for more than one unit - a  joint you eventually find to be the culprit is communal to the building.  And so the route for redress is freeholder/ma not the owner of the other lease.  Size of structure, independent drains, communal verticals - all vary with size of building and age and construction.

J63320

Is there a shower in the flat above? Sometimes sealant fails, but a leak is only apparent when someone is actually standing on the shower tray, making it flex. 

ThisIsWeird

Theleak250 said:

I have a leak from the flat above. It drips within the bedroom ceiling, you can hear the drips hitting my ceiling and there are small stains forming. This only happens when they use the bathroom. But the leak is just outside the bountry of the bathroom. Direclty above the leak is a bedroom, and no radiator etc near it. It seems there is something in the void.

What do you mean by 'when they use the bathroom'? What 'use' are they making at the time the drips follow? Do you hear a toilet flush, for example?
And this 'drip' noise - is it in the same place the stain is appearing? Exactly? Close? Not sure?
It's interesting that you are seemingly hearing a drip at a point away from their bathroom. You would expect the 'drip' to occur close to the point of leak, so within the bathroom area, and the leaked water would then travel along the top surface of your ceiling if it's sloping, until it finds a low point where it pools, and then comes through.
But, if the actual 'drips' are occuring outwith their bathroom area, that suggests the leaked water is travelling across their floor (or possibly under any floor covering), before finding a way through their floor, and dripping on to yours.
Or, of course, the water can - often does - travel along the outsides of pipes until it cannot hold on, and then drips off.
Anyhoo, if the drips and stains continue, one of you is going to have to have a surface broken through... It may be their plumbing, but it's a kind of shared 'building' responsibility, so the right thing, imv, would be to compare the two ways of accessing the area - through your ceiling, or via their floor. And that will likely come down to what floor 'covering' they have. If it's tiled, for example, the cost to lift and replace will be horrendous. Stick-down laminate or lvt, probably ditto. 'Floating' laminate, not a Biggie. Sheet vinyl, ditto (unless glued).
Going through a p'board ceiling, really quite easy. But you will need an assurance it'll be made perfect afterwards.
Isn't this a communal landlord issue to resolve?

badmemory

The leak from my bathroom it turns out was happening every time the toilet was flushed.  It turns out it had been going on for 6 years since I had a new bathroom.  Luckily it missed the joist so just the floor & quite a small bit of the ceiling fortunately.  But 6 years & the bits of water on the bathroom floor just put down to an OCD with careless hand washing.  The new toilet had been put in with a joint under strain because they had located the pipework too near the next wall which would have made the toilet too close to the radiator.  A very small bathroom obviously.

Theleak250

J63320 said:

Is there a shower in the flat above? Sometimes sealant fails, but a leak is only apparent when someone is actually standing on the shower tray, making it flex. 

No, it is a bathtub. The landlord of the flat stated it's all been re-sealed.

Theleak250

ThisIsWeird said:

Theleak250 said:

I have a leak from the flat above. It drips within the bedroom ceiling, you can hear the drips hitting my ceiling and there are small stains forming. This only happens when they use the bathroom. But the leak is just outside the bountry of the bathroom. Direclty above the leak is a bedroom, and no radiator etc near it. It seems there is something in the void.

What do you mean by 'when they use the bathroom'? What 'use' are they making at the time the drips follow? Do you hear a toilet flush, for example?
And this 'drip' noise - is it in the same place the stain is appearing? Exactly? Close? Not sure?
It's interesting that you are seemingly hearing a drip at a point away from their bathroom. You would expect the 'drip' to occur close to the point of leak, so within the bathroom area, and the leaked water would then travel along the top surface of your ceiling if it's sloping, until it finds a low point where it pools, and then comes through.
But, if the actual 'drips' are occuring outwith their bathroom area, that suggests the leaked water is travelling across their floor (or possibly under any floor covering), before finding a way through their floor, and dripping on to yours.
Or, of course, the water can - often does - travel along the outsides of pipes until it cannot hold on, and then drips off.
Anyhoo, if the drips and stains continue, one of you is going to have to have a surface broken through... It may be their plumbing, but it's a kind of shared 'building' responsibility, so the right thing, imv, would be to compare the two ways of accessing the area - through your ceiling, or via their floor. And that will likely come down to what floor 'covering' they have. If it's tiled, for example, the cost to lift and replace will be horrendous. Stick-down laminate or lvt, probably ditto. 'Floating' laminate, not a Biggie. Sheet vinyl, ditto (unless glued).
Going through a p'board ceiling, really quite easy. But you will need an assurance it'll be made perfect afterwards.
Isn't this a communal landlord issue to resolve?

Yes, I can hear the sink being used and the toliet being flushed, the the dripping is almost instant, but not all of the tiime.

As far as I can tell the drip and the stain are in the same place. But these are both away from the bathroom by about 30cm.

I'm not sure what a communical landlord would be, I own my flat, he owns his, I have spoken to the management company and the insurer and they advised to go to the landlord.

It is a small block of only two levels. Only one flat above.

Thank you

Theleak250

I will have to ask the landlord if he wants to investigate himself, or I can check in the void, but he will be liable for any costs from the check and repair. Thanks for the advice. i will update when there is an update.

badmemory

Believe me the water is unlikely to come through the ceiling directly under where it is leaking from.  I had one leak come through where a light fitting was attached to the ceiling, luckily away from the electrics.  Water goes for the easiest point of exit.

ThisIsWeird

Theleak250 said:

Yes, I can hear the sink being used and the toliet being flushed, the the dripping is almost instant, but not all of the tiime.

As far as I can tell the drip and the stain are in the same place. But these are both away from the bathroom by about 30cm.

I'm not sure what a communical landlord would be, I own my flat, he owns his, I have spoken to the management company and the insurer and they advised to go to the landlord.

It is a small block of only two levels. Only one flat above.

Thank you

Ok, almost certainly the leak is from a 'waste' pipe, either the toilet soil pipe (I hope not...) or the basin.

In Leasehold buildings - flats like yours - the 'buildings' insurance is handled by the Freeholder or Management Company. Then, each individual flat owner can have contents insurance if they choose - which clearly makes sense, as it's usually very cheap. To this 'contents', add 'Legal Protection' :-)

Usually, as I understand it, any pipes which are run within walls and between floors are considered part of the fabric of the building, so if they fail then the ManCo should become involved to sort it - after all, it isn't in their interests to have damage being caused to the building. Everything within the shell of each flat - the pipes and wastes that connect to those within the walls - are then the individual Leaseholder's responsibility. (There are bound to be variations to this, such as if a Leaseholder carries out alterations to the existing within-the-walls pipework.)

So, it looks as tho' the Leaseholder of the flat above is an 'innocent' party here, and has had checked everything within their skin.

I'd suggest this is a Freeholder issue now. I think they may need reminding that any further damage that is caused to your flat is their responsibility, as they are being negligent in sorting it.

However, there comes the issue of how to access the leak. Usually this is much easier done from below, but that depends on the flooring they have down. You need to have this agreed with the FH - that they will make perfectly good your ceiling afterwards, should you allow this. They may possibly insist, and may have the right to - I don't know...