HMO or private rental

Piglet31

Anyone who has read my previous posts here will know that my landlord makes questionable choices (that's the polite non litigious term!). Briefly, he didn't want us to contact the council to set up the council tax on our newly renovated flat in an old building. He said that if we did the other tenants wouldn't be impressed and that it was formerly an HMO it could easily appear to still be the same. We ignored him as we have a legal commitment to pay council tax. As i understand it an HMO has some shared facilities/rooms which we do not apart from the communal entrance hall. I've just found out he has two other buildings of flats nearby where he has classified the buildings with the council as HMO's. I'm wondering why he would take this route and who it truly benefits. I'm not sure why he would have an interest in misinforming the council even if it is saving his other tenants from paying council tax. Any ideas?
As an aside, there was also a bailiff here looking for him a few weeks back due to non payment of a bill he had addressed to this building despite not living here. Its a bit of a mess tbh and now looking to move out as soon as I can afford it (removals, new deposit etc.) 

LinLui

As i understand it an HMO has some shared facilities/rooms which we do not apart from the communal entrance hall. I've just found out he has two other buildings of flats nearby where he has classified the buildings with the council as HMO's. I'm wondering why he would take this route and who it truly benefits.

That is not entirely true. Soeone else may know the exact details, but some self-contained flats without any shared facilities may continue to be classed a HMO's if the conversion doesn't comply with building regulations. I think the proportion of a building that is converted also has some relevance. But there are definitely "self-contained flats" that still qualify as HMO property as we have several up the road.

LinLui

I found this on line:

It should be noted that a property consisting of self-contained flats can also be classed as a HMO if: - The building works undertaken in connection with the conversion did not comply with the appropriate building standards and still does not comply with them; and - Less than two-thirds of the self-contained flats are owner occupied. Properties that have been erected or converted into dwellings which are selfcontained may still be classed as a HMO if they meet the self-contained test v1.0 detailed in section 254 of the Housing Act 2004. HMOs containing self-contained flats that do not have building approval may also fall under the definition of a converted block of flats under section 257. S257 HMOs are subject to the requirements of The Licensing and Management of Houses in Multiple Occupation (Additional Provisions)(England) Regulations 2007.

BonaDea

Section 257 HMOs are usually buildings that were converted into flats before the relevant (1990/91?)  building regs came into force, and where fewer than 2/3 of them are not owner-occupied (note the wording is not ' are tenanted')    The flats themselves need not be HMOs.

Piglet31

LinLui said:

As i understand it an HMO has some shared facilities/rooms which we do not apart from the communal entrance hall. I've just found out he has two other buildings of flats nearby where he has classified the buildings with the council as HMO's. I'm wondering why he would take this route and who it truly benefits.

That is not entirely true. Soeone else may know the exact details, but some self-contained flats without any shared facilities may continue to be classed a HMO's if the conversion doesn't comply with building regulations. I think the proportion of a building that is converted also has some relevance. But there are definitely "self-contained flats" that still qualify as HMO property as we have several up the road.

Thanks for the info, so it would appear the building doesn't meet regulations? 

Piglet31

The responses seem to be the opposite to gov.uk website which states:

"A house in multiple occupation (HMO) is a property rented out by at least 3 people who are not from 1 ‘household’ (for example a family) but share facilities like the bathroom and kitchen. It’s sometimes called a ‘house share’.

If you want to rent out your property as a house in multiple occupation in England or Wales you must contact your council to check if you need a licence.

You must have a licence if you’re renting out a large HMO in England or Wales. Your property is defined as a large HMO if all of the following apply:

• it is rented to 5 or more people who form more than 1 household
• some or all tenants share toilet, bathroom or kitchen facilities
• at least 1 tenant pays rent (or their employer pays it for them)

Even if your property is smaller and rented to fewer people, you may still need a licence depending on the area. Check with your council."

Bookworm105

Piglet31 said:

The responses seem to be the opposite to gov.uk website which states:

but .gov is superficial info aimed at those barely able to read.
It does not cover the more complex scenarios which, as noted in the other posts, are based on the full details as written in legislation. A flat conversion not in accord with building regs can, as they say, be an HMO (because, for example, that entails different fire safety  provision to a self contained flat)

saajan_12

Some misguided responses. 
For council tax purposes, the .gov website is NOT the defining source. A council tax HMO may differ from the definition for licencing purposes. If something is within one but outside another definition, it doesn't necessarily mean there are regulations breached. Its a different authority and a different definition. 

For council tax, one property according to the valuation office has council tax paid for the whole thing. If that is divided into multiple units, then the HMO landlord pays the council tax. 

Piglet31 said:

He said that if we did the other tenants wouldn't be impressed and that it was formerly an HMO it could easily appear to still be the same. We ignored him as we have a legal commitment to pay council tax. As i understand it an HMO has some shared facilities/rooms which we do not apart from the communal entrance hall. I've just found out he has two other buildings of flats nearby where he has classified the buildings with the council as HMO's. I'm wondering why he would take this route and who it truly benefits. I'm not sure why he would have an interest in misinforming the council even if it is saving his other tenants from paying council tax. Any ideas? 

This could be valid, if the council see it as one property and the LL is paying the council tax for that, then there is nothing wrong. His interest is likely because he advertised as the units being all inclusive of council tax, for which the other tenants pay slightly higher rent. If you approach the council to try to get this changed, then they may apply the same assessment to the other units and seek council tax from all the other units. 

Ratkin007

is your area an Article 4 area? if your property is deemed an HMO then used as family/single person accommodation, it may lose its HMO status and then require planning permission to be used as a HMO. Information on HMOs can be found in the Housing Act 2004 as detailed above. It sounds like your property may fall under Section 257 of the Husing Act.

Bookworm105

saajan_12 said:

 A council tax HMO may differ from the definition for licencing purposes.

I note use of the word may...
wef 1 Dec 23 the Council Tax (Chargeable Dwellings and Liability for Owners) (Amendment) (England) Regulations 2023 mean that council tax definition of HMO is aligned with the Housing Act definition, with the sole exception of properties falling under Section 257 - which relates to  converted self contained flats where the liability remains on the resident, not the landlord.

The Council Tax (Chargeable Dwellings and Liability for Owners) (Amendment) (England) Regulations 2023 (legislation.gov.uk)

Housing Act 2004 (legislation.gov.uk) section 254

Housing Act 2004 (legislation.gov.uk) section 257

Bookworm105

Piglet31 said:

Anyone who has read my previous posts here will know that my landlord makes questionable choices (that's the polite non litigious term!). Briefly, he didn't want us to contact the council to set up the council tax on our newly renovated flat in an old building. He said that if we did the other tenants wouldn't be impressed and that it was formerly an HMO it could easily appear to still be the same. We ignored him as we have a legal commitment to pay council tax.

whether you are or are not liable for CT is a matter for you to find out by contacting the council. What the LL has done with other properties is irrelevant.

If it is classed as an HMO then the LL is liable for the CT on the whole building, which one would assume has been factored into the size of the rent 
if your building falls under the section 257 exception then you, not the LL, are liable.