Rent-a-roof Solar, batteries and EV charging

Scrib0101

There are some older threads on this subject which may be a bit out of date so starting a new one with new information related to my situation.

I had solar panels fitted in 2011 as part of the rent-a-roof scheme. This has run fine all this time but my energy usage is increasing during the day as essentially, we have more people working from home. That and the general increase in energy costs I am looking at ways to better manage my energy costs. I am looking at a home battery system that will be AC-connected that cover the demand I would have for the worst days in the year. I plan to move on to an economy 7 tariff, charge the batteries up overnight then use that electricity during the day. This works out as a significant saving on per Kwh cost. Along with the solar-generated electricity from the panels as part of the rent-a-roof scheme. I know the return on investment will be slow but I am looking longer ahead. I can purchase batteries now while I am working then when I retire I can enjoy the savings I will have then when I have less income.

The solar panels I have fitted do not generate a great deal of electricity and they rarely meet the demand at any point during sunlight hours. I spoke with the company that maintains the solar panels and they said I am not allowed batteries, they also said I am not allowed to charge an EV during the day at my home.

I explained the contract has no mention of batteries or EV charging and only states that I have use of any electricity generated for my property and that any unused power would feed into the grid. They insisted that unused means not allowed to charge batteries with it. One key item is they completely ignored that I intend to charge batteries at night and they immediately assumed I want to charge from Solar. If that were the case the batteries would be permanently flat as the solar PV only generates about 2.4Kwh.

Has anyone else had any dealings like this where they have been blocked from adding batteries or told they are not allowed to charge an EV during the day. One of the reasons I am looking at the batteries I have selected is that they also can do DC fast charging. I do not have an EV yet but I will have one at some point so looking to future proof myself.

I am trying to raise a dispute with them but do not seem to be getting anywhere. Has anyone had a similar situation or can advise a sensible route to get this resolved via an official body. I did call the Energy Ombudsman but this does not fall within their area.

Any helpful responses or advice is greatly appreciated.

Reed_Richards

Under the FIT scheme the default position is that you get paid for generation and also what is deemed to be the amount of electricity you export, half of what you generate.  But it you have a smart meter that can measure what you export, then you could be obliged to be paid for what you actually do export rather than what you are deemed to have exported.  I don't know what the current state of play is; is your roof still rented out for deemed export?  Presumably the company renting your roof is worried about being paid for metered export and that export not being so great because you are charging batteries, a home battery and the one in your EV.

Anyway, that's probably the rationale for why the company renting your roof has taken the position it has. After that it comes down to the contract and whether what they want you not to do is legally enforceable.

I believe you do need DNO approval for a battery, by the way.   
  

mmmmikey

At the end of the day it really comes down to what's in the contract between you. It may not be your intention now  to charge the batteries using solar, but if you changed your mind in the future of sold the house to someone who did then that would eat into their margin at the point at which a smart meter is installed and they get metered export rather than deemed. So you are probably going to be fighting a losing battle, I'm sorry to say.

One avenue that is worth exploring is seeing if you can buy out the contract and take ownership of the panels yourself. The first thing to do would be to get a price from them and see if the numbers stack up. If you want views about whether what they offer you is reasonable then post the details here and there are plenty of panel owners who can help.

 

Scrib0101

Thank you for the replies. A couple of responses:

From what I have seen I would require a DNO and the higher level one as the inverter with the batteries would be above 3.6Kwh.

With regards to electricity feed in, there essentially is none or very little. The best I have seen the system generate is 2.4Kwh. With multiple people working from home and adult kids that do not know how to turn things off, electricity usage is on the high side. The export was setup in 2011, I have no knowledge or viability of how that is configured. I would also not be exporting any of the electricity from the batteries, it is purely for my own use and then top them back up on an evening. I am looking at a 24Kwh battery setup that should easily cover a full days usage.

There is zero mention anywhere in the contract about batteries or EV charging

If I sold my property to move, it is highly likely I would take the batteries with me to the next property. I have selected a battery system that does fit with potentially relocating it.

Reed_Richards

So if you installed a battery or charged an EV the rent-a-roof people wouldn't be able to tell because you have minimal export anyway.  And you wouldn't charge either with solar power because you already use all the solar power you generate, you think.

Do you have a smart meter or an older dual-rate meter?  You can get much better night-time rates for EV charging with a smart meter than for Economy 7.  And if you have a smart meter it should tell you if you actually do manage any significant export.

If you are sure there is nothing about charging batteries in you contract then if I were you I would go ahead.  The worst that could happen is that the rent-a-roof people would take you to court and try to hold you to something that isn't in their contract.  That would be expensive so they might offer you a good deal to buy them out at that point.    

wrf12345

One thing that is happening in China, California and Oz is that they have massive battery farms to store energy to use in the more expensive periods (from solar and wind), and I suspect our Green brigade will want lots of this going forward. This may affect cheap rate price upwards and expensive rate downwards so when you retire it may not work as you expect. These battery farms are a dreadful security risk in Europe and easily wiped out by our Russian "friends" so there is a good case to be made for splitting them up and siting them on existing properties, with some payback for the owners willing to allow a bit of their land to be occupied by a container sized battery, so I would wait to see what green incentives emerge from the new government before handing over any dosh - not to mention that battery pricing is on a steep downwards curve. Do like the idea of taking the battery pack with you when you move. Also, if you are not connecting to the solar system I don't see any way they can stop you plugging in a battery pack but maybe that is just the kw you are attaching that affects everything.

BarelySentientAI

Scrib0101 said:

There is zero mention anywhere in the contract about batteries or EV charging

But is there something there that covers modifying the system, equipment that could change the output, etc?

Don't just focus on the words PV and EV.

Reed_Richards

BarelySentientAI said:

Scrib0101 said:

There is zero mention anywhere in the contract about batteries or EV charging

But is there something there that covers modifying the system, equipment that could change the output, etc?

Don't just focus on the words PV and EV.

"Modifying the system" how?  Installing a heat pump maybe?  Or an electric aga?  Or a hot tub?  Any of these have the capacity to use a lot of electricity.  Or maybe just buying a fan heater and pugging that in?

I am far from being a legal expert but a contract with "a term is so unreasonable that it cannot properly have been understood" might not stand up in court.  And anyway, buying a battery with a dedicated inverter is not modifying the system.

Try posting your query to the Green and Ethical board : https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/categories/green-ethical-moneysaving .  There is plenty of solar panel expertise there and they don't all read "Energy"        

mmmmikey

The opposing legal team would argue that there are fundamental differences between the examples above and a battery system. Firstly, a battery system is generating equipment, i.e. it has the ability to export as well as import electricity. Secondly, battery systems have specific circuitry to siphon off any spare electricity which is different to just using it. As such, if you fit a battery system you would be extending or modifying the operation of the existing generating equipment and not just using it.

Even if you agreed in a legally binding way only to store overnight electricity, it would probably cost the panel owners more to monitor and enforce the contract than the income they are protecting. Expecting them to agree to something that has the potential to be a bucket load of hassle in the future purely on the basis of you saying you won't store the solar seems unrealistic to me.

In practice the cost of taking legal action proactively probably outweighs the benefit on your part, so I suspect that your practical options are (1) try and buy your way out of the contract (2) ignore them, install the battery anyway, hope they never realise, don't bother taking the matter up with you or give up quickly and accept the risk this could to badly wrong for you (3) give the idea up.

BarelySentientAI

Reed_Richards said:

BarelySentientAI said:

Scrib0101 said:

There is zero mention anywhere in the contract about batteries or EV charging

But is there something there that covers modifying the system, equipment that could change the output, etc?

Don't just focus on the words PV and EV.

"Modifying the system" how?  Installing a heat pump maybe?  Or an electric aga?  Or a hot tub?  Any of these have the capacity to use a lot of electricity.  Or maybe just buying a fan heater and pugging that in?

I am far from being a legal expert but a contract with "a term is so unreasonable that it cannot properly have been understood" might not stand up in court.  And anyway, buying a battery with a dedicated inverter is not modifying the system.
    

I was giving advice about trying to find relevant terms, not trying to quote a legal clause.

And fitting a battery with dedicated inverter could be relevant, depending on how it was installed and configured, and what the particular clauses in the OP's contract actually said.

We don't know what the contract says, only that it doesn't specifically say "batteries" or "EV charging".  There could be any number of clauses that are clearly understandable and not unreasonable that the OP hasn't told us about because they were focusing on just those words.

It's a massive overstatement to decide that its not an issue and the contract might not stand up in court when we don't actually know what the contract says.  You don't need to be anywhere near a legal expert to realise that.

I think it's quite plausible that the PV company have misunderstood (maybe even wilfully) what the OP was asking to do and there is, in fact, nothing in the contract to stop an AC-coupled battery on a separate circuit and any EV charger, but you're leaping at this point.

Reed_Richards

I wholeheartedly agree that we don't know what this particular contract says and I personally don't know what the generality of such contracts say.  But unless the OP wishes to post a copy of the contract with the names redacted then that is as far as we can go, unless someone appears with greater knowledge of what these contracts typically say.  We never even established if current payments are for deemed or actual export, which seems to me to be highly pertinent.