Land Registry - how a part possessory part absolute property is sold?

annetheman

Hi all,
I'm buying a house where part of the garden is unregistered and the rest has absolute title. The seller applied for possessory title at the beginning of July and amazingly, the Land Registry has completed this today. I am trying to understand what happens next - 

My solicitor's exact message is below:



From this I understand that I will be buying 2 titles - the possessory one and the absolute one. Hence solicitor needs to update the TR1, contract and mortgage deed with both titles - I think.

Then in the future (12 years), I can apply to amend the absolute one to incorporate the possessory one so it is all one absolute title.

Is this correct?

My solicitor is EXTREMELY unresponsive for the most part so not going to get far trying to ask her this, unfortunately. Hoping someone here can help (maybe @Land_Registry!)

Thanks for any advice on this and if you have experience with possessory title applications, would be really helpful to hear your story!

LHW99

We sold a previous house with possessory / absolute title. Apart from having both title details included when contracts were exchanged / completed it was just like any other sale. Changing the possessory into absolute had to be left to the purchasers, as it still had time to run. Not sure now if there was any insurance involved against some other claimant coming forward.

annetheman

LHW99 said:

We sold a previous house with possessory / absolute title. Apart from having both title details included when contracts were exchanged / completed it was just like any other sale. Changing the possessory into absolute had to be left to the purchasers, as it still had time to run. Not sure now if there was any insurance involved against some other claimant coming forward.

Thank you, it's good to hear perspective from a seller! I hope to be there in 12 years but you never know!

Land_Registry

annetheman said:

Hi all,
I'm buying a house where part of the garden is unregistered and the rest has absolute title. The seller applied for possessory title at the beginning of July and amazingly, the Land Registry has completed this today. I am trying to understand what happens next - 

My solicitor's exact message is below:



From this I understand that I will be buying 2 titles - the possessory one and the absolute one. Hence solicitor needs to update the TR1, contract and mortgage deed with both titles - I think.

Then in the future (12 years), I can apply to amend the absolute one to incorporate the possessory one so it is all one absolute title.

Is this correct?

My solicitor is EXTREMELY unresponsive for the most part so not going to get far trying to ask her this, unfortunately. Hoping someone here can help (maybe @Land_Registry!)

Thanks for any advice on this and if you have experience with possessory title applications, would be really helpful to hear your story!

You have understood things perfectly. Whilst a possessory title is a tad 'weaker' than an absolute one the fact that you have it now hopefully isn't a problem for the buyer/their lender.
So you are selling both titles to comprise one property and in 12 years whoever is then owning can apply to upgrade the possessory title to absolute and, if they wish, ask to amalgamate both into a single title as appropriate (although the amalgamation is not entirely necessary)

annetheman

Land_Registry said:

annetheman said:

Hi all,
I'm buying a house where part of the garden is unregistered and the rest has absolute title. The seller applied for possessory title at the beginning of July and amazingly, the Land Registry has completed this today. I am trying to understand what happens next - 

My solicitor's exact message is below:



From this I understand that I will be buying 2 titles - the possessory one and the absolute one. Hence solicitor needs to update the TR1, contract and mortgage deed with both titles - I think.

Then in the future (12 years), I can apply to amend the absolute one to incorporate the possessory one so it is all one absolute title.

Is this correct?

My solicitor is EXTREMELY unresponsive for the most part so not going to get far trying to ask her this, unfortunately. Hoping someone here can help (maybe @Land_Registry!)

Thanks for any advice on this and if you have experience with possessory title applications, would be really helpful to hear your story!

You have understood things perfectly. Whilst a possessory title is a tad 'weaker' than an absolute one the fact that you have it now hopefully isn't a problem for the buyer/their lender.
So you are selling both titles to comprise one property and in 12 years whoever is then owning can apply to upgrade the possessory title to absolute and, if they wish, ask to amalgamate both into a single title as appropriate (although the amalgamation is not entirely necessary)

Thank you, that’s very helpful!

Please may you kindly help me understand also: now that the application has been “completed”, we still need to wait for the Title to be granted and the number - is this correct? Are you able to estimate roughly how long might this take, typically? https://www.gov.uk/guidance/hm-land-registry-estimated-completion-timeframes is helpful but not sure what bucket is sits within.

I am still waiting for the LR caseworker to contact me but they've been super great so far!

 Thank you again!

Land_Registry

annetheman said:

Land_Registry said:

annetheman said:

Hi all,
I'm buying a house where part of the garden is unregistered and the rest has absolute title. The seller applied for possessory title at the beginning of July and amazingly, the Land Registry has completed this today. I am trying to understand what happens next - 

My solicitor's exact message is below:



From this I understand that I will be buying 2 titles - the possessory one and the absolute one. Hence solicitor needs to update the TR1, contract and mortgage deed with both titles - I think.

Then in the future (12 years), I can apply to amend the absolute one to incorporate the possessory one so it is all one absolute title.

Is this correct?

My solicitor is EXTREMELY unresponsive for the most part so not going to get far trying to ask her this, unfortunately. Hoping someone here can help (maybe @Land_Registry!)

Thanks for any advice on this and if you have experience with possessory title applications, would be really helpful to hear your story!

You have understood things perfectly. Whilst a possessory title is a tad 'weaker' than an absolute one the fact that you have it now hopefully isn't a problem for the buyer/their lender.
So you are selling both titles to comprise one property and in 12 years whoever is then owning can apply to upgrade the possessory title to absolute and, if they wish, ask to amalgamate both into a single title as appropriate (although the amalgamation is not entirely necessary)

Thank you, that’s very helpful!

Please may you kindly help me understand also: now that the application has been “completed”, we still need to wait for the Title to be granted and the number - is this correct? Are you able to estimate roughly how long might this take, typically? https://www.gov.uk/guidance/hm-land-registry-estimated-completion-timeframes is helpful but not sure what bucket is sits within.

I am still waiting for the LR caseworker to contact me but they've been super great so far!

 Thank you again!

If it's been completed at our end then the new title number would already exist and be available. I assume though that they mean the other parcel of land and that's still being processed.
Do you have the title number perhaps?

annetheman

Land_Registry said:

annetheman said:

Land_Registry said:

annetheman said:

Hi all,
I'm buying a house where part of the garden is unregistered and the rest has absolute title. The seller applied for possessory title at the beginning of July and amazingly, the Land Registry has completed this today. I am trying to understand what happens next - 

My solicitor's exact message is below:



From this I understand that I will be buying 2 titles - the possessory one and the absolute one. Hence solicitor needs to update the TR1, contract and mortgage deed with both titles - I think.

Then in the future (12 years), I can apply to amend the absolute one to incorporate the possessory one so it is all one absolute title.

Is this correct?

My solicitor is EXTREMELY unresponsive for the most part so not going to get far trying to ask her this, unfortunately. Hoping someone here can help (maybe @Land_Registry!)

Thanks for any advice on this and if you have experience with possessory title applications, would be really helpful to hear your story!

You have understood things perfectly. Whilst a possessory title is a tad 'weaker' than an absolute one the fact that you have it now hopefully isn't a problem for the buyer/their lender.
So you are selling both titles to comprise one property and in 12 years whoever is then owning can apply to upgrade the possessory title to absolute and, if they wish, ask to amalgamate both into a single title as appropriate (although the amalgamation is not entirely necessary)

Thank you, that’s very helpful!

Please may you kindly help me understand also: now that the application has been “completed”, we still need to wait for the Title to be granted and the number - is this correct? Are you able to estimate roughly how long might this take, typically? https://www.gov.uk/guidance/hm-land-registry-estimated-completion-timeframes is helpful but not sure what bucket is sits within.

I am still waiting for the LR caseworker to contact me but they've been super great so far!

 Thank you again!

If it's been completed at our end then the new title number would already exist and be available. I assume though that they mean the other parcel of land and that's still being processed.
Do you have the title number perhaps?

Thank you - unfortunately it turns out my solicitor was misinformed. The Title has been rejected and I understand from the LR customer service team it is not possible to rectify and re-review an application that has been rejected. The seller needs to start a brand new application from scratch and re-submit.

This is the stressful news because my mortgage offer (which was REALLY hard to get for a non-regulation-compliant house) is going to expire September 24th and for some reason my buyer put in their notice in their flat for August 24th.

So... Back to the start and who knows how long it'll take seller to rectify whatever they've been rejected for...

No question really, just an exasperated vent! Thank you for your help anyway!

Land_Registry

annetheman said:

Land_Registry said:

annetheman said:

Land_Registry said:

annetheman said:

Hi all,
I'm buying a house where part of the garden is unregistered and the rest has absolute title. The seller applied for possessory title at the beginning of July and amazingly, the Land Registry has completed this today. I am trying to understand what happens next - 

My solicitor's exact message is below:



From this I understand that I will be buying 2 titles - the possessory one and the absolute one. Hence solicitor needs to update the TR1, contract and mortgage deed with both titles - I think.

Then in the future (12 years), I can apply to amend the absolute one to incorporate the possessory one so it is all one absolute title.

Is this correct?

My solicitor is EXTREMELY unresponsive for the most part so not going to get far trying to ask her this, unfortunately. Hoping someone here can help (maybe @Land_Registry!)

Thanks for any advice on this and if you have experience with possessory title applications, would be really helpful to hear your story!

You have understood things perfectly. Whilst a possessory title is a tad 'weaker' than an absolute one the fact that you have it now hopefully isn't a problem for the buyer/their lender.
So you are selling both titles to comprise one property and in 12 years whoever is then owning can apply to upgrade the possessory title to absolute and, if they wish, ask to amalgamate both into a single title as appropriate (although the amalgamation is not entirely necessary)

Thank you, that’s very helpful!

Please may you kindly help me understand also: now that the application has been “completed”, we still need to wait for the Title to be granted and the number - is this correct? Are you able to estimate roughly how long might this take, typically? https://www.gov.uk/guidance/hm-land-registry-estimated-completion-timeframes is helpful but not sure what bucket is sits within.

I am still waiting for the LR caseworker to contact me but they've been super great so far!

 Thank you again!

If it's been completed at our end then the new title number would already exist and be available. I assume though that they mean the other parcel of land and that's still being processed.
Do you have the title number perhaps?

Thank you - unfortunately it turns out my solicitor was misinformed. The Title has been rejected and I understand from the LR customer service team it is not possible to rectify and re-review an application that has been rejected. The seller needs to start a brand new application from scratch and re-submit.

This is the stressful news because my mortgage offer (which was REALLY hard to get for a non-regulation-compliant house) is going to expire September 24th and for some reason my buyer put in their notice in their flat for August 24th.

So... Back to the start and who knows how long it'll take seller to rectify whatever they've been rejected for...

No question really, just an exasperated vent! Thank you for your help anyway!

Exasperated vents can help. But the key is to submit a 'proper' application. Then they can ask us to expedite the process on the basis of the expiring mortgage offer. So it's all about accuracy and then speed but there may still be a way to travel yet if they are trying to rectify something. I say that simply because any rectification is usual complex in that other parties need to be notified and agree to the change. 
But little point considering that until the application has been made, expedited and then processing has started. At that point there's usually enough information to at least give an indication of rough timescales
If you have not already done so I would suggest seeing if the lender can offer an extension to the time period. Better to ask and know now.

annetheman

I have been scouring the net for experiences around this and found very little, it appears because Land Registry rejections are quite rare. So for the future person like me who would find it helpful, I'll update what happened and hopefully follow this Title application rejection and reapplication through to completion.

The Land Registry sent detailed feedback to the applicant solicitors outlining what needs to be rectified 23 August. My solicitor confirmed the seller's solicitor wouldn't share the feedback with her. The EA however (who has been super great, as have LR customer service!) was very transparent with us as he understands the impact on my buyer and issues there - albeit my buyer's own fault for putting in their notice before exchange... another story, anyway!

Turns out the rejection was because for a first charge, original documents must be sent with the application; the seller's solicitors sent uncertified copies. This is obviously a bit professionally embarrassing for them, which makes it understandable they don't want to share with my solicitor.

They did rectify the same day and sent a new FR1 application 24 August, I hope with another request to expedite. I will follow it closely, because I am not sure if LR will reference the rejected application meaning a speedier conclusion.

For now, based on the last application, timelines should be around 22 days to application completion (with no reference to previous application).

If we get the Title number in 15th August, solicitor amends deed, TR1 and contract for 16th August and I sign and send back same day, we may exchange 1 week prior to our planned completion date.... Sigh - a tall ask but miracles possible.

Will update in future.......

annetheman

Hi @Land_Registry I don't suppose you wouldn't mind helping me with 1 more question on this prolonged saga! The Ordnance Surveyor site visit is tomorrow morning! How long typically would it be until the report is received and reviewed by the case worker, for the application to proceed?

This is the latest update I got:

Land_Registry

OS usually submit their report to us within 5 days. That then gets referred to the casework team to review the report against the facts as already presented. 
If things match up ok then the final stage is usually contacting neighbouring owners to see if they object to the registration. 
If wider checks are needed then there's going to be at least a 3 week delay whilst replies are sought.