Where can I find online some details of the rules by which universal credit payment are worked out?

ColonelCabbage

Adding a child to a UC claim has not 1 but 3 effects: it (1) introduces a child element, (2) increases housing element, and (3) decreases earning deductions. I got this highly classified piece of intelligence from this forum through numerous conversations - for the life of me I cannot find it anywhere online.

I'm currently in a dispute with my ex and I need to demonstrate to them the above. But there's nothing online about it that I can produce. Why does it seem to be actual classified information? Is it not useful for people to know?

More importantly does anyone know a web page that states the aforementioned 3 effects?

poppy12345

All those links regerding this was added on your previous thread back in January. See your thread here.https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6498841/does-adding-1-kid-increase-uc-housing-by-100-reduce-earnings-deduction-by-200/p1 
I suggest you have another read of your thread above as this will save other forumites from giving you the same information again. Links are in the first comment. 

ColonelCabbage

poppy12345 said:

All those links regerding this was added on your previous thread back in January. See your thread here.https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6498841/does-adding-1-kid-increase-uc-housing-by-100-reduce-earnings-deduction-by-200/p1 
I suggest you have another read of your thread above as this will save other forumites from giving you the same information again. Links are in the first comment. 

Do you mean this link? https://www.gov.uk/universal-credit/what-youll-get

I went through it again just now and nowhere does it state the 3 effects (child element, increased housing, decreased earnings deductions) of adding a child to a UC claim. The only clear thing it mentions is the added £333 child element. Nothing about how a child would affect housing or deductions, let alone according to which particular rules.

Am I missing something obvious? Or is it a different link? But there's no other relevant link in the thread you linked. I'm really confused.

Jyana

Yamor's links in the first reply to that thread cover everything you have asked.

ColonelCabbage

Jyana said:

Yamor's links in the first reply to that thread cover everything you have asked.

I must be the thickest guy on this forum hands down then because I went through all these links multiple times by now and I still can't find it.

I'm pretty sure it's not there but since you say it is, would you share with me the parts explaining how a child increases housing (and according to what rules) and the part explaining how a child decreases earnings deductions (and according to what rules) please?

poppy12345

ColonelCabbage said:

Jyana said:

Yamor's links in the first reply to that thread cover everything you have asked.

I must be the thickest guy on this forum hands down then because I went through all these links multiple times by now and I still can't find it.

I'm pretty sure it's not there but since you say it is, would you share with me the parts explaining how a child increases housing (and according to what rules) and the part explaining how a child decreases earnings deductions (and according to what rules) please?

Everything you've asked was all covered in the thread I linked to above. I'd advise you to take some of your time and have a good read back through it. (including all the links that were posted) pointless asking for advice if you don't read the links. 

Members here post freely in their own time and many of them have health conditions too, which makes it even more difficult to advise. It makes it even worse when someone comes along again to ask for the same advice they previously asked for and this is what you're doing here. I have health conditions and don't have the time or energy to explain everything again to you. 

xxxxxxxx

Does adding 1 kid increase UC "housing" by £100 & reduce "earnings deduction" by £200? — MoneySavingExpert Forum

I hope that link works, it is supposed to take you to your original thread you started on 15 January at 11:37PM 
The very first reply you got is from Yamor, said this:

Links to guidance about this:

Rate of extra UC entitlement for a child: https://www.understandinguniversalcredit.gov.uk/new-to-universal-credit/how-much-youll-get/

Bedroom entitlement: https://www.understandinguniversalcredit.gov.uk/new-to-universal-credit/housing/

Work allowance: https://www.understandinguniversalcredit.gov.uk/new-to-universal-credit/universal-credit-and-work/

Again I hope the links work for you.
*The first link shows how much extra you get for a child or 2 children.
*The second link takes you to a page on renting if you then click on "rent to a private landlord" you are taken here..
Housing costs and Universal Credit: Renting from a private landlord - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)  
Which explains under the heading "If you live with a partner or family"  how the rate of housing you get is what you need for the number of bedrooms required. However, whether a UC claimant would actually see an increase in paid housing costs depends on what was already being paid, if her rent was £400 a month and she was already getting the full amount of £400 a month then having a child will not increase the housing costs being paid for that address.
*The third link takes you to a page with the heading "How your wages affect your payments" 
Which explains about the Work Allowance under the heading "If you have a disability, health condition or have children"  
However, she could already have a work allowance if she is already in the LCW or LCWRA after having a health assessment also called a Work Capability Assessment.

If she already has 2 children being paid for then adding a new born third child will not gain anything. 

So you can see what she gets from adding a child entirely depends on what she was already getting, it could be £0 extra.

TELLIT01

I'm afraid that if you are looking for a simple list with all the various elements and how much they affect other elements you are likely to be disappointed.  Information provided by Government departments are, by their very nature, complex.

ColonelCabbage

xxxxxxxx said:

Does adding 1 kid increase UC "housing" by £100 & reduce "earnings deduction" by £200? — MoneySavingExpert Forum

I hope that link works, it is supposed to take you to your original thread you started on 15 January at 11:37PM 
The very first reply you got is from Yamor, said this:

Links to guidance about this:

Rate of extra UC entitlement for a child: https://www.understandinguniversalcredit.gov.uk/new-to-universal-credit/how-much-youll-get/

Bedroom entitlement: https://www.understandinguniversalcredit.gov.uk/new-to-universal-credit/housing/

Work allowance: https://www.understandinguniversalcredit.gov.uk/new-to-universal-credit/universal-credit-and-work/

Again I hope the links work for you.
*The first link shows how much extra you get for a child or 2 children.
*The second link takes you to a page on renting if you then click on "rent to a private landlord" you are taken here..
Housing costs and Universal Credit: Renting from a private landlord - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)  
Which explains under the heading "If you live with a partner or family"  how the rate of housing you get is what you need for the number of bedrooms required. However, whether a UC claimant would actually see an increase in paid housing costs depends on what was already being paid, if her rent was £400 a month and she was already getting the full amount of £400 a month then having a child will not increase the housing costs being paid for that address.
*The third link takes you to a page with the heading "How your wages affect your payments" 
Which explains about the Work Allowance under the heading "If you have a disability, health condition or have children"  
However, she could already have a work allowance if she is already in the LCW or LCWRA after having a health assessment also called a Work Capability Assessment.

If she already has 2 children being paid for then adding a new born third child will not gain anything. 

So you can see what she gets from adding a child entirely depends on what she was already getting, it could be £0 extra.

Thanks @xxxxxxxx, however the only information relevant to my enquiry that https://www.gov.uk/universal-credit/what-youll-get mentions is the £333.33 child element.

The relevant section on https://www.gov.uk/universal-credit/how-your-wages-affect-your-payments is “If you have a disability, health condition or have children”: “If you get help with housing costs, your payment will start to reduce when your monthly wages reach £404. If you do not get help with housing costs, your payment will start to reduce when your monthly wages reach £673.” But it doesn’t concern me because I get housing in both cases.

The relevant section on https://www.gov.uk/housing-and-universal-credit/renting-from-private-landlord is the “If you live with a partner or family” section: “The following can have their own bedroom: . . . a child that would normally share but shared bedrooms are already taken, for example you have 3 children and 2 already share”. Setting aside the somewhat confusing nature of that bit, it does not explain *how* adding a child will affect UC payments. It just says “the amount of housing money depends on it”. 

How does Turn2us estimate (see two attached screenshots) that housing should go from £693 to £748 and earnings deductions from -£794 to -£572? Is it too much for us to ask some sort of rules or principles guiding such calculations? Even at a general level? Is there not a way to go a bit further that “UC payment depend on earnings” or similar non-information?

It is after seeing Turn2us calculations that my ex is asking me to provide some explanations as to how this calculations work. I find it very frustrating that I cannot provide anything. @TELLIT01I understand it’s unrealistic to expect exhaustive details due to involved complexity but there’s a rather huge gap between that and essential nothing at all as is the case here.

Also @poppy12345 thank you for your helpful input and I apologize if I made you feel frustrated or offended or anything like that.

Turn2us calculations below:

0 CHILD:

1 CHILD:

poppy12345

The work allowance is £404/month if you claim for help with the rent. If you don't claim for help with the rent it's £673/month. Why wouldn't neither of those apply? If you have a child on your claim or you've been found to have LCVW/LCWRA then the work allowance applies. 

You are making this more complicated that what it is. I'll let others advise again with the rest. (unless they feel we are going round in circles like I do)

Robbie64

Your ex is basically asking you to provide the regulations that govern every single aspect of calculating a Universal credit claim. You could probably ask the DWP to do this but it's very involved.

Housing

The amount increases because the presence of a child increases the bedrooms required from 1 to 2. This means a higher amount of Local Housing Allowance. The amount paid for one bedroom, two bedrooms etc is determined by where you live.

Deductions

The presence of a child means a work allowance is payable, There are two levels of work allowance which could apply in the above circumstance. One is where there are no housing costs (a higher amount), the other is where there are housing costs (a lower amount). The latter applies in the above case. In addition, a taper is applied to earnings after a work allownace has been applied. It's currently 55%. Deductions are (net earnings minus work allowance) x55%.

If your ex wants the legal framnework for every single aspect of UC then i suggest he or she approaches the DWP for a full explanation. The UC statement provides pretty much a plain explanation of what happens and why without adding in every single regulation that governs those calculations.