PCN received due to ticket paid late

Haohaoda

Hi everyone,

On 5/5/23, I’ve entered a car park at 12:52pm, the ticket machine doesn’t work, tried the payment line also failed, finally successfully paid the parking ticket on the RingGo APP at 13:19pm. Left car park at 13:20pm. 

Euro Parking Services Ltd issued PCN on 9/6/23, appealed on 14/6/23, appeal rejected on 15/6/23 because payment made at 13:19pm was for duration from 13:19pm - 14:19pm. 

Today, after one year, received a letter before claim from Gladstones solicitors, being asked to pay £160 to settle the case. Being offered to appeal to themselves - Gladstones solicitors, but surely it would be rejected again. Letter attached. 

Is there anywhere else I can appeal this PCN? Any comments appreciated. 

Coupon-mad

LBC stage us covered in the NEWBIES thread second post.  Send the standard response then when they reply about VAT, report them to HMRC as seen in every recent Gladstones LBC thread.  Read a few & you'll see.

  

LDast

When you appealed the original PCN (NtK) that you received 35 days after the alleged breach of contract, did you reveal the identity of the driver? Just trying to determine whether you can be liable for the PCN as the keeper or not.

Haohaoda

LDast said:

When you appealed the original PCN (NtK) that you received 35 days after the alleged breach of contract, did you reveal the identity of the driver? Just trying to determine whether you can be liable for the PCN as the keeper or not.

Hi LDast, thank you for your reply. 

Just to clarify the PCN was issued on a courtesy vehicle. I was the policy holder of the car insurance, there’s also a second driver on the policy. So the hire agreement was under my name and the second driver was added to the hire agreement. 

It was the second driver who drove the car on the day. The one hour ticket was paid from his bank account. But I didn’t reveal the driver’s identity when appealed, only based on the grounds that the delay was due to the machine or payment line didn’t work. 

Many thanks 

Haohaoda

Coupon-mad said:

LBC stage us covered in the NEWBIES thread second post.  Send the standard response then when they reply about VAT, report them to HMRC as seen in every recent Gladstones LBC thread.  Read a few & you'll see.

  

Hi Coupon-mad, thank you for your advice. 

I’ve researched this forum for Gladstones cases, it seems everyone receives a standard response when question about whether their debt recovery fee includes VAT, and following report to HMRC waiting for the claim to arrive. 

I’m a bit concerned if they would send the letter of claim by post. For the letter before claim, I initially received a text message on 1/7/24 saying further to our letter, called back to find out what it was about then they emailed me the letter dated 24/6/24 which they claimed they’ve posted it out during the week commencing 24/6/24 but I haven’t received anything so far by post. 

Gr1pr

Doesn't matter, just make sure that YOU have sent the template LoC/LBC reply to them as directed in the newbies sticky thread in announcements, the one that includes VAT topics 

The missing letter is irrelevant, especially now that you have a copy 

However 

Missing paperwork is often caused by people moving and not updating various parties, so maybe they have an old address. ?  Check , Check , Check 

Ensure that you are 100% certain that your V5C document , driving licence and the parking company DPO and also that Gladstone have the correct address, dont assume, Check !

LDast

Haohaoda said:

LDast said:

When you appealed the original PCN (NtK) that you received 35 days after the alleged breach of contract, did you reveal the identity of the driver? Just trying to determine whether you can be liable for the PCN as the keeper or not.

Hi LDast, thank you for your reply. 

Just to clarify the PCN was issued on a courtesy vehicle. I was the policy holder of the car insurance, there’s also a second driver on the policy. So the hire agreement was under my name and the second driver was added to the hire agreement. 

It was the second driver who drove the car on the day. The one hour ticket was paid from his bank account. But I didn’t reveal the driver’s identity when appealed, only based on the grounds that the delay was due to the machine or payment line didn’t work. 

Many thanks 

If it was a courtesy (hire) vehicle then whoever signed the agreement for the vehicle was the Hirer. The original NtK would have gone to the registered keeper of the vehicle and they would have had to transfer liability away from themselves to the Hirer. The hire company has no idea who was driving. In doing so, they would have had to provide copies of (i) a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement, (ii) a copy of the hire agreement and (iii) a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement.

I'm not sure what you mean by "I was the policy holder of the car insurance, there’s also a second driver on the policy". Do you mean the Hire Agreement?

Once the hire company has transferred liability to the Hirer, the PPC should have issued a Notice to Hirer (NtH) to the Hirer (presumably you) together with copies of the three documents mentioned. The PPC still does not know the identity of the driver unless you, the Hirer blabbed it, inadvertently or otherwise. If, as in 99.999% of PCNs involving hire/lease vehicles, the PPC doesn't provide the copies of all 3 documents with the NtH, they cannot hold the Hirer liable. Only the (hopefully) unknown driver is liable.

Haohaoda

LDast said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "I was the policy holder of the car insurance, there’s also a second driver on the policy". Do you mean the Hire Agreement? 

Once the hire company has transferred liability to the Hirer, the PPC should have issued a Notice to Hirer (NtH) to the Hirer (presumably you) together with copies of the three documents mentioned. The PPC still does not know the identity of the driver unless you, the Hirer blabbed it, inadvertently or otherwise. If, as in 99.999% of PCNs involving hire/lease vehicles, the PPC doesn't provide the copies of all 3 documents with the NtH, they cannot hold the Hirer liable. Only the (hopefully) unknown driver is liable.

I mean the car insurance policy. The second driver on my car insurance policy was added to the hire agreement as additional driver when I signed the hire agreement. 

The PPC has only issued me NtH, nothing else. If the PPC got those 3 documents from hire company, could they just kept them on file and not sending together with the NtH? 

I didn’t reveal the driver’s details but appealed, could my appeal be assumed by PPC that I was the driver?

On the letter to Gladstones, do I need to say that I was not the driver and the PPC never send me those 3 documents apart from VAT?

Many thanks

Coupon-mad

No. Keep that detail for defence.  Gladstones won't stop the claim IF there is one planned (which you can never tell from a LBC). 

LDast

Haohaoda said:
The PPC has only issued me NtH, nothing else. If the PPC got those 3 documents from hire company, could they just kept them on file and not sending together with the NtH? 

I didn’t reveal the driver’s details but appealed, could my appeal be assumed by PPC that I was the driver?

The law is very specific about the need to fully comply with all the requirements of PoFA. PoFA states that copies of all three documents must be included with the NtH. Keeping them on file does not comply with the requirements of PoFA. So, they have not complied with PoFA and so cannot transfer liability from the unknown driver to the known keeper.

Unless you, the Hirer admitted, inadvertently or otherwise, that you were also the driver, then there can be no assumption or inference that the keeper much also be the driver. Did you say things like "I parked the car..." or "I drove to..." instead of "The driver parked the car..."?

Haohaoda

LDast said:

The law is very specific about the need to fully comply with all the requirements of PoFA. PoFA states that copies of all three documents must be included with the NtH. Keeping them on file does not comply with the requirements of PoFA. So, they have not complied with PoFA and so cannot transfer liability from the unknown driver to the known keeper.

Unless you, the Hirer admitted, inadvertently or otherwise, that you were also the driver, then there can be no assumption or inference that the keeper much also be the driver. Did you say things like "I parked the car..." or "I drove to..." instead of "The driver parked the car..."?

Hi LDast,

I replied Gladstone in July followed by the LBC thread as below:

Today received their reply:

They’ve explained VAT is not included so guess nothing report to HMRC, they’ve also attached a letter with Euro parking heading 

Also they’ve attached my original appeal 

In my appeal, although I didn’t say I drove into the car park, but I did say I tried to pay with different methods, can this be an evidence for them to say I was the driver?

Any comments would be appreciated.