Gas meter error

BarelySentientAI

Zandoni said:

BarelySentientAI said:

Chris_b2z said:

BarelySentientAI said:

jnsunnyday said:

I have crossed checked them frequently.  Although admittedly not every month.  My gas meter is a bit of a pain to get at, but appreciate there could have been error at some point.  Still, random 200 hike is odd.  It would have to have been reading at a lag for months.  

A 'spot' jump isn't that unusual, particularly as meter batteries drain.

If true, then potentially millions of households are regularly being overcharged.

That's shocking, but even worse if the industry and regulator are aware of this as a known defect affecting a certain make / model and doing nothing about it.

Battery getting low can make electronics do funny things.  Voltage spikes on the grid can make electricity meters do funny things.  One of those funny things can be a spot increase in reading (or very rapid change), hence "isn't that unusual".  It's a way that these things are known to break.  It's not millions and it's not regular.  Recognising a failure mechanism exists isn't the same as doing nothing about a known defect.

On the other hand, millions of households are potentially being undercharged at all times if you fancy a pointless sound bite.  Many more than could be affected by a recognised end of life defect in one model of meter. Also shocking to you?

I can’t comment on electric meters but gas variants are far more likely to over read than under, this applies to electronic and mechanical diaphragm.

Electro-mechanical tend to under-read as they age - something that was discovered because electro-mechanical protection relays do the same thing and the physics is the same.

Electronic meters tend to be much more random in how they err.

BarelySentientAI

Chris_b2z said:

BarelySentientAI said:

Chris_b2z said:

BarelySentientAI said:

jnsunnyday said:

I have crossed checked them frequently.  Although admittedly not every month.  My gas meter is a bit of a pain to get at, but appreciate there could have been error at some point.  Still, random 200 hike is odd.  It would have to have been reading at a lag for months.  

A 'spot' jump isn't that unusual, particularly as meter batteries drain.

If true, then potentially millions of households are regularly being overcharged.

That's shocking, but even worse if the industry and regulator are aware of this as a known defect affecting a certain make / model and doing nothing about it.

Battery getting low can make electronics do funny things.  Voltage spikes on the grid can make electricity meters do funny things.  One of those funny things can be a spot increase in reading (or very rapid change), hence "isn't that unusual".  It's a way that these things are known to break.  It's not millions and it's not regular.  Recognising a failure mechanism exists isn't the same as doing nothing about a known defect.

On the other hand, millions of households are potentially being undercharged at all times if you fancy a pointless sound bite.  Many more than could be affected by a recognised end of life defect in one model of meter. Also shocking to you?

In my opinion, if there is a technical defect or limitation known to result in false readings on a large scale then an urgent pro-active technical solution needs to be found. It should not be ignored or concealed. Lessons must be learned from Horizon.
There is one manufacturer of gas smart meter that appears repeatedly in online forums each time describing very similar random 'spot jump' symptoms. I would hope that the industry are already aware and understand the underlying cause. However, suppliers tend to deny any knowledge even when someone reports this exact symptom on a model known to be prone to this failure.

There isn't.

There is a known failure mechanism that occasionally occurs in a small proportion of meters.  Hence why I said "isn't that unusual", because it's a known mechanism.

I am directly aware of several failure mechanisms in white goods that cause house fires.  If someone reported one of those, I would also say "isn't that unusual".  I'm not then saying there is something known to be setting houses on fire on a large scale and implying a cover-up.

There are also known failure mechanisms that occasionally occur that result in free electricity and gas.

Zandoni

BarelySentientAI said:

Chris_b2z said:

BarelySentientAI said:

Chris_b2z said:

BarelySentientAI said:

jnsunnyday said:

I have crossed checked them frequently.  Although admittedly not every month.  My gas meter is a bit of a pain to get at, but appreciate there could have been error at some point.  Still, random 200 hike is odd.  It would have to have been reading at a lag for months.  

A 'spot' jump isn't that unusual, particularly as meter batteries drain.

If true, then potentially millions of households are regularly being overcharged.

That's shocking, but even worse if the industry and regulator are aware of this as a known defect affecting a certain make / model and doing nothing about it.

Battery getting low can make electronics do funny things.  Voltage spikes on the grid can make electricity meters do funny things.  One of those funny things can be a spot increase in reading (or very rapid change), hence "isn't that unusual".  It's a way that these things are known to break.  It's not millions and it's not regular.  Recognising a failure mechanism exists isn't the same as doing nothing about a known defect.

On the other hand, millions of households are potentially being undercharged at all times if you fancy a pointless sound bite.  Many more than could be affected by a recognised end of life defect in one model of meter. Also shocking to you?

In my opinion, if there is a technical defect or limitation known to result in false readings on a large scale then an urgent pro-active technical solution needs to be found. It should not be ignored or concealed. Lessons must be learned from Horizon.
There is one manufacturer of gas smart meter that appears repeatedly in online forums each time describing very similar random 'spot jump' symptoms. I would hope that the industry are already aware and understand the underlying cause. However, suppliers tend to deny any knowledge even when someone reports this exact symptom on a model known to be prone to this failure.

There isn't.

There is a known failure mechanism that occasionally occurs in a small proportion of meters.  Hence why I said "isn't that unusual", because it's a known mechanism.

I am directly aware of several failure mechanisms in white goods that cause house fires.  If someone reported one of those, I would also say "isn't that unusual".  I'm not then saying there is something known to be setting houses on fire on a large scale and implying a cover-up.

There are also known failure mechanisms that occasionally occur that result in free electricity and gas.

In my day all manufacturers of gas meters had every stage of production approved and we would ensure that they abided by those approvals. If they tried to get around any of these approvals or problems developed I had the power to stop production by removing the ability to allow them to insert the official seals. We also kept an eye on all disputed meter results and we would act if there were any other faults starting to show. I don't know for sure but I doubt whether it's so strict nowadays.

BarelySentientAI

Zandoni said:

BarelySentientAI said:

Chris_b2z said:

BarelySentientAI said:

Chris_b2z said:

BarelySentientAI said:

jnsunnyday said:

I have crossed checked them frequently.  Although admittedly not every month.  My gas meter is a bit of a pain to get at, but appreciate there could have been error at some point.  Still, random 200 hike is odd.  It would have to have been reading at a lag for months.  

A 'spot' jump isn't that unusual, particularly as meter batteries drain.

If true, then potentially millions of households are regularly being overcharged.

That's shocking, but even worse if the industry and regulator are aware of this as a known defect affecting a certain make / model and doing nothing about it.

Battery getting low can make electronics do funny things.  Voltage spikes on the grid can make electricity meters do funny things.  One of those funny things can be a spot increase in reading (or very rapid change), hence "isn't that unusual".  It's a way that these things are known to break.  It's not millions and it's not regular.  Recognising a failure mechanism exists isn't the same as doing nothing about a known defect.

On the other hand, millions of households are potentially being undercharged at all times if you fancy a pointless sound bite.  Many more than could be affected by a recognised end of life defect in one model of meter. Also shocking to you?

In my opinion, if there is a technical defect or limitation known to result in false readings on a large scale then an urgent pro-active technical solution needs to be found. It should not be ignored or concealed. Lessons must be learned from Horizon.
There is one manufacturer of gas smart meter that appears repeatedly in online forums each time describing very similar random 'spot jump' symptoms. I would hope that the industry are already aware and understand the underlying cause. However, suppliers tend to deny any knowledge even when someone reports this exact symptom on a model known to be prone to this failure.

There isn't.

There is a known failure mechanism that occasionally occurs in a small proportion of meters.  Hence why I said "isn't that unusual", because it's a known mechanism.

I am directly aware of several failure mechanisms in white goods that cause house fires.  If someone reported one of those, I would also say "isn't that unusual".  I'm not then saying there is something known to be setting houses on fire on a large scale and implying a cover-up.

There are also known failure mechanisms that occasionally occur that result in free electricity and gas.

In my day all manufacturers of gas meters had every stage of production approved and we would ensure that they abided by those approvals. If they tried to get around any of these approvals or problems developed I had the power to stop production by removing the ability to allow them to insert the official seals. We also kept an eye on all disputed meter results and we would act if there were any other faults starting to show. I don't know for sure but I doubt whether it's so strict nowadays.

But there's a very big difference between "when it starts to break, this is one way that we know it can go" and "this is a defective design that should not be approved".

You could name almost any item, and I could tell you a way that it is known to break that is 'bad'.  Doesn't mean that the item in general or its design is faulty.

Zandoni

BarelySentientAI said:

Zandoni said:

BarelySentientAI said:

Chris_b2z said:

BarelySentientAI said:

Chris_b2z said:

BarelySentientAI said:

jnsunnyday said:

I have crossed checked them frequently.  Although admittedly not every month.  My gas meter is a bit of a pain to get at, but appreciate there could have been error at some point.  Still, random 200 hike is odd.  It would have to have been reading at a lag for months.  

A 'spot' jump isn't that unusual, particularly as meter batteries drain.

If true, then potentially millions of households are regularly being overcharged.

That's shocking, but even worse if the industry and regulator are aware of this as a known defect affecting a certain make / model and doing nothing about it.

Battery getting low can make electronics do funny things.  Voltage spikes on the grid can make electricity meters do funny things.  One of those funny things can be a spot increase in reading (or very rapid change), hence "isn't that unusual".  It's a way that these things are known to break.  It's not millions and it's not regular.  Recognising a failure mechanism exists isn't the same as doing nothing about a known defect.

On the other hand, millions of households are potentially being undercharged at all times if you fancy a pointless sound bite.  Many more than could be affected by a recognised end of life defect in one model of meter. Also shocking to you?

In my opinion, if there is a technical defect or limitation known to result in false readings on a large scale then an urgent pro-active technical solution needs to be found. It should not be ignored or concealed. Lessons must be learned from Horizon.
There is one manufacturer of gas smart meter that appears repeatedly in online forums each time describing very similar random 'spot jump' symptoms. I would hope that the industry are already aware and understand the underlying cause. However, suppliers tend to deny any knowledge even when someone reports this exact symptom on a model known to be prone to this failure.

There isn't.

There is a known failure mechanism that occasionally occurs in a small proportion of meters.  Hence why I said "isn't that unusual", because it's a known mechanism.

I am directly aware of several failure mechanisms in white goods that cause house fires.  If someone reported one of those, I would also say "isn't that unusual".  I'm not then saying there is something known to be setting houses on fire on a large scale and implying a cover-up.

There are also known failure mechanisms that occasionally occur that result in free electricity and gas.

In my day all manufacturers of gas meters had every stage of production approved and we would ensure that they abided by those approvals. If they tried to get around any of these approvals or problems developed I had the power to stop production by removing the ability to allow them to insert the official seals. We also kept an eye on all disputed meter results and we would act if there were any other faults starting to show. I don't know for sure but I doubt whether it's so strict nowadays.

But there's a very big difference between "when it starts to break, this is one way that we know it can go" and "this is a defective design that should not be approved".

You could name almost any item, and I could tell you a way that it is known to break that is 'bad'.  Doesn't mean that the item in general or its design is faulty.

Not really, electronic meters were completely new and only time would show if they were going to be as good as diaphragm meters. Meters are installed in all sorts of hostile environments so it was very hard to know if they would be as good as the tried and tested mechanical meter.

jnsunnyday

Just an update. Octopus have got back to me and offered me some compensation for the large jump.

It doesn’t quite cover all of it, but I have said I will accept that amount for the May discrepancy only.  And I’ve explicitly written that any further discrepancies I would make a further complaint.  I have a new Meter installation Booked in for July.  

Interestingly, they have also said that they don’t want details of my readings and won’t be taking into account the list I sent of my previous usage because I don’t have a smart meter.  It seems to be saying that readings aren’t valid because it hasn’t been feeding back to them regularly.  I found this a little frustrating because I did actually request a smart meter from bulb several years ago and from Octopus when I first got switched to them. Both Companies said I could not have one Because I already had a first generation digital meter.   

 looking back, there’s been a few other months in the last 18 months where my Readings have been a little high in retrospect. Also seems to be in colder snaps of weather.    So I think this is possibly something gone wrong with the meter that is around 12 years old.  

Anyway, I have a resolution for the moment.  Thank you for those who provided helpful comments.  

FreeBear

jnsunnyday said: So I think this is possibly something gone wrong with the meter that is around 12 years old. 

Battery life on a digital gas meter is around 10 years, so yours is getting old. It is also possible that the meter is outside its certified life and should be replaced. There may be a sticker on the meter giving an expiry date.

I'd go back to Octopus and point out the length of time the meter has been in place, and ask again for a replacement or a battery swap.

Zandoni

FreeBear said:

jnsunnyday said: So I think this is possibly something gone wrong with the meter that is around 12 years old. 

Battery life on a digital gas meter is around 10 years, so yours is getting old. It is also possible that the meter is outside its certified life and should be replaced. There may be a sticker on the meter giving an expiry date.

I'd go back to Octopus and point out the length of time the meter has been in place, and ask again for a replacement or a battery swap.

It's also worth noting that an electronic meter can self increment even if the battery is good.

mmmmikey

By and large modern electronic devices last longer and are far more reliable than their old-fashioned mechanical counterparts because they don't wear out in the same way. Think about things like electronic ignition in cars or the mechanical controllers on old washing machines.

That's not to say they don't go wrong, but as @BarelySentientAI points out above, rather than progressively wearing out before finally failing like mechanical devices they tend either to fail suddenly or become erratic.

The test and inspection regime is every bit as rigorous for electronic devices as mechanical devices but by necessity different. Note that under the current MID regulations meters don't have a fixed end of life date, a sample of each meter make and model is tested each year and a decision made on that basis as to when they should be replaced. 

jnsunnyday

I'm just keeping this updated in case it's usful for anyone else. 

Having thought Octopus were dealing with this okay - they are not. One of their operatives has put on the system that I moved house on 8th April. I did not move house - there has been zero mention of moving house. 

All my payments since 8th april were refuded and then some 5x the amount was taken - without even being given a bill. I've now recieved a paper billing in the post - like I'm a new customer, with a second lot of estimates (not the same value already taken, they seem to have been taken in addition). 

I've basically had ~£600 taken out of my octopus energy account for a month - some of which unbilled and they have reclassfied me as a new customer to do this. 

For context- my normal May/ June Bills are £50-70 max per month. 

I have raised a formal compaint.