Septic Tank Drama

PRDMKT

Hi all,

My purchase has encountered significant issues at the last minute. I consider myself tolerant of the various problems that can arise during conveyancing, and we have overlooked quite a few because the property has potential. However, the situation with the septic tank is causing me substantial concern.

Key Concerns:

Vendor's Knowledge: Despite living in the property for around 20 years, the vendor claims to know almost nothing about the septic tank and is refusing to confirm its compliance with the general binding rules.

Surface Water Drainage: 

   Initially, the vendor claimed that the surface water drained into the septic tank, which seemed odd.

  - The vendor then changed their answer to an assumed soakaway but has no idea where it is.

  - The local search was unable to verify where the surface water drains.

Septic Tank Emptying Frequency: The septic tank needs emptying every 3-6 months, which seems unusually frequent even for a shared tank.

Proximity to Public Sewer: There is a public sewer near the property boundary, close to the septic tank. This raises the question of whether the tank is improperly draining into the public sewer.

Lack of Evidence: The vendor is currently unable to provide evidence of a leach field.

I am worried that this could be a nightmare system requiring immediate and costly rectification.

Has anyone else had similar experiences? Is this something to be seriously concerned about? I tend to worry a lot and would appreciate any advice.

Cheers,  

gwynlas

Have you looked into the cost of connection to the public sewer if it is nearby? If the septic tank emptied so frequently this requires explanation unless there are multiple users.

Could a treatment system be installed and is it worth getting estimates?

If in other respects the house appears reasonable what figure would put you off proceeding?

ThisIsWeird

PRDMKT said:

gwynlas said:

Have you looked into the cost of connection to the public sewer if it is nearby? If the septic tank emptied so frequently this requires explanation unless there are multiple users.

Could a treatment system be installed and is it worth getting estimates?

If in other respects the house appears reasonable what figure would put you off proceeding?

There is a public foul sewer nearby, but the property is landlocked (bar the driveway which is the other end of the plot) and the drain would have to travel uphill to get the drain and cross the public surface water sewer, so I don't think it's reasonable to connect to it.

My concern is that the system requires immediate replacement and that would cost £10,000's 

I understand you can get specialist surveyors in to assess, and if it turns out to be the worst case scenario - it breaches regs - then get some ballpark figures for a change to a TPlant. You should have a choice of TP installers who should come out to quote - obviously the vendor would need to agree to this as it's still theirs.

It's shared? In which case the cost should be too.

You can pump up to the main sewer - possibly a better overall option - but again you'd need quotes.

It does appear as tho' the was no consideration for replacement in the asking price, so it seems perfectly reasonable to ask/expect some discount.

If it's a shared system, your conveyancing solicitor should be able to explain the obligations of all parties to its replacement - make sure that's sewage-tight. There's a looong thread on here that highlights the sorts of issues that can arise if all parties don't agree; https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6528251/septic-tank-shared-upgrade-what-would-you-do/p1

And make sure you have solid LegalProt added to your house insurance.

Hoenir

Playhard ball with the vendor. Any other potential purchaser is going to encounter exactly the same problems. Revise your offer downwards to cover the full cost of rectification.  

mark_cycling00

For the first few points you mention, this can be quite common and not someone being sneaky or misleading.

A typical person isn't a drainage expert and all they may know if that they have a septic tank with a soakaway and not realise there is a separate soakaway for rainwater. 20 years ago this wasn't a big issue and the vendors may not have asked that many questions when they purchased 

Where I live no-one really knows where these things are located. I found a soakaway this year whilst gardening. Turns out that one side of the roof has its own one. Who would know? It's not on any plans. 

Occasionally someone bungs up their tank and an engineer comes around and guesses where it is based on experience.

Again, most people don't know about compliance, the rules only changed a few years ago and at the time a big deal was made about the new rules not being applied retrospectively.

I bet you don't know the latest building regs and whether your internal doors confirm.

In terms of emptying it frequently. They might just think they're doing the right thing. If a boiler is serviced annually it doesn't mean it's broken. If shared it might not be much cost each. Similarly if it hadn't been emptied for 30 years would that be a good sign or a bad one?

Try and give the vendors some leeway on this

propertyrental

Have a proper survey done? These people are only one of many firms that do this:

https://www.ukdpsolutions.co.uk/septic-tanks/surveys

Further comments in bold below

PRDMKT said:

Hi all,

My purchase has encountered significant issues at the last minute. I consider myself tolerant of the various problems that can arise during conveyancing, and we have overlooked quite a few because the property has potential. However, the situation with the septic tank is causing me substantial concern.

Key Concerns:

Vendor's Knowledge: Despite living in the property for around 20 years, the vendor claims to know almost nothing about the septic tank and is refusing to confirm its compliance with the general binding rules. My ex neighbour lived there 25 years and had no idea where the outflow of shsred septic tank went. When it got blocked we spent weeks digging but never found it. Ended up getting a shared treatment plant

Surface Water Drainage: 

   Initially, the vendor claimed that the surface water drained into the septic tank, which seemed odd. Not ideal. not unusual!

  - The vendor then changed their answer to an assumed soakaway but has no idea where it is. Not ideal. not unusual!

  - The local search was unable to verify where the surface water drains. Key things are 1) is the water authority charging for waste water or not? Is there an obvious problem eg damp walls or areas of garden getting boggy?

Septic Tank Emptying Frequency: The septic tank needs emptying every 3-6 months, which seems unusually frequent even for a shared tank. Frequency depends on size of tank, number of users and.... whether excess/surface water goes in. Also what does 'needs' mean? Given the sellers apparant limited knowledge how is he deciding when it 'needs' emptying?

Proximity to Public Sewer: There is a public sewer near the property boundary, close to the septic tank. This raises the question of whether the tank is improperly draining into the public sewer. ????? you've said later the public sewer is uphill ad far away....??

Lack of Evidence: The vendor is currently unable to provide evidence of a leach field. Does not mean there isn't one, but I'd assume not to be cautious

I suggest you get a survey done and /or just assume replacement will be necessary.

A treatment plant is the way to go. No leach field required (these can add a lot to the cost of a septic tank). Is there a pond, drain, ditch, or other watercourse nearby you can use? If so, and dependent on number of bedrooms (which dictates size of treatment plant) budget £5K for plant and labour?

sheramber

I had a septic tank in my last house- in Scotland. 

We had a certificate to say our tank complied as it drained into a soak away field on our property.

There is a register somewhere as the buyer's solicitor queried it as she could not find it on the register. She was happy with the certificate.

propertyrental

PRDMKT said:

mark_cycling00 said:

For the first few points you mention, this can be quite common and not someone being sneaky or misleading.

A typical person isn't a drainage expert and all they may know if that they have a septic tank with a soakaway and not realise there is a separate soakaway for rainwater. 20 years ago this wasn't a big issue and the vendors may not have asked that many questions when they purchased 

Where I live no-one really knows where these things are located. I found a soakaway this year whilst gardening. Turns out that one side of the roof has its own one. Who would know? It's not on any plans. 

Occasionally someone bungs up their tank and an engineer comes around and guesses where it is based on experience.

Again, most people don't know about compliance, the rules only changed a few years ago and at the time a big deal was made about the new rules not being applied retrospectively.

I bet you don't know the latest building regs and whether your internal doors confirm.

In terms of emptying it frequently. They might just think they're doing the right thing. If a boiler is serviced annually it doesn't mean it's broken. If shared it might not be much cost each. Similarly if it hadn't been emptied for 30 years would that be a good sign or a bad one?

Try and give the vendors some leeway on this

......

Also I guess I should have been more precise earlier, the tank is getting full every 3 - 6 months, they're not just emptying it during this frequency.

Again - ambiguous!

What does 'getting full' mean? Liquid reaching the top of the tank? It's supposed to. Then the bacteria gets to work breaking down the solids (though nowhere near as effectively as a treatment plant). A tank does not 'need' emptying just because it is 'getting full'

Unless it is a cesspit and not a septic tank?

Or does 'getting full' mean the solids are reaching the top of the tank? Ah! now that is different.....

MeteredOut

sheramber said:

I had a septic tank in my last house- in Scotland. 

We had a certificate to say our tank complied as it drained into a soak away field on our property.

There is a register somewhere as the buyer's solicitor queried it as she could not find it on the register. She was happy with the certificate.

I once owned a house with a septic tank with soakaway (it was located in our farm neighbours field). It was not originally registered with SEPA when we bought the property (it was not law then) but we had to have it registered when we sold (we actually should have registered it sooner than that )

I'm sure there are similar rules in England (assuming that's where the OP is) but there might be some differences.

PRDMKT

propertyrental said:

PRDMKT said:

mark_cycling00 said:

For the first few points you mention, this can be quite common and not someone being sneaky or misleading.

A typical person isn't a drainage expert and all they may know if that they have a septic tank with a soakaway and not realise there is a separate soakaway for rainwater. 20 years ago this wasn't a big issue and the vendors may not have asked that many questions when they purchased 

Where I live no-one really knows where these things are located. I found a soakaway this year whilst gardening. Turns out that one side of the roof has its own one. Who would know? It's not on any plans. 

Occasionally someone bungs up their tank and an engineer comes around and guesses where it is based on experience.

Again, most people don't know about compliance, the rules only changed a few years ago and at the time a big deal was made about the new rules not being applied retrospectively.

I bet you don't know the latest building regs and whether your internal doors confirm.

In terms of emptying it frequently. They might just think they're doing the right thing. If a boiler is serviced annually it doesn't mean it's broken. If shared it might not be much cost each. Similarly if it hadn't been emptied for 30 years would that be a good sign or a bad one?

Try and give the vendors some leeway on this

......

Also I guess I should have been more precise earlier, the tank is getting full every 3 - 6 months, they're not just emptying it during this frequency.

Again - ambiguous!

What does 'getting full' mean? Liquid reaching the top of the tank? It's supposed to. Then the bacteria gets to work breaking down the solids (though nowhere near as effectively as a treatment plant). A tank does not 'need' emptying just because it is 'getting full'

Unless it is a cesspit and not a septic tank?

Or does 'getting full' mean the solids are reaching the top of the tank? Ah! now that is different.....

Thank you for your response- I actually do not know if it's the liquid or solid reaching the top, I will have to find this out.

it's definitely a septic tank and not cesspool however.

Section62

propertyrental said:

Again - ambiguous!

What does 'getting full' mean? Liquid reaching the top of the tank? It's supposed to. Then the bacteria gets to work breaking down the solids (though nowhere near as effectively as a treatment plant). A tank does not 'need' emptying just because it is 'getting full'

If the system is working correctly then the solids should be broken down in the primary tank, what exits the primary tank should only be liquid.  A packaged treatment plant is designed to work on this liquid effluent to speed up the process of biological decomposition (in old systems what the secondary tank was for) so that the final effluent meets the discharge consent requirements (e.g. for BOD)

The need to pump out the primary tank (and usually the sump of the treatment plant) is because the anaerobic process doesn't achieve 100% decomposition of the solids, so over time there will be an accumulation of solids.  How long that takes before the primary needs desludging depends on what people are putting into the system, and the capacity of the primary tank.

Packaged treatment plants overcome the problem of inefficient leach fields - by allowing the final effluent to be discharged direct to a watercourse.

propertyrental said:

Have a proper survey done? These people are only one of many firms that do this:

https://www.ukdpsolutions.co.uk/septic-tanks/surveys

Further comments in bold below

PRDMKT said:

I suggest you get a survey done and /or just assume replacement will be necessary.

A treatment plant is the way to go. No leach field required (these can add a lot to the cost of a septic tank). Is there a pond, drain, ditch, or other watercourse nearby you can use? If so, and dependent on number of bedrooms (which dictates size of treatment plant) budget £5K for plant and labour?

I think the OP would have to do some more investigations before coming to that conclusion.

With a main sewer nearby it may be better to switch to a pumping station option and discharge to the public sewer instead.  It won't be an easy decision to make though, as all the different economic factors would need to be taken into account.  The pumping option would use more energy and would require ongoing payments to the local water company, vs the likely larger capital cost of a packaged treatment plant and the ongoing cost of maintenance and desludging.

What may swing it is the need for a discharge consent.  There are powers which can be used to compel people to connect to the public sewer if one is within a certain distance from the property, and with growing concern for the quality of our rivers, the relevant consent authority may refuse an application if the alternative of connecting to the public sewer is an option.

What really does need clarifying as a matter of urgency is whether the septic tank serves this property alone, or is shared with others.