Salary Disclosure For Same Role

Southend_2

kempiejon said:

lisyloo said:

kempiejon said:

Previous role I was on a lower grade to my colleagues, I always told them. We had different job titles and I wasn't bothered my manager tried to explain to me why I got less money never to my satisfaction. When a new member of staff at taken on to cover my role and those others in the department I had to train them. When I pointed that out to my manager and HR they said they'd look at my role. I think sharing this sort of information is useful but most people feel uncomfortable doing so. I never got that. Why be embarrassed or cagey most people at work have a shrewd idea, why not just be open.

because it could really hack someone off.
It's a very sensitive subject for most people.

As a quick aside then @lisyloo you can probably help me. I said above  most staff must have a fair idea? Jobs are advertised and yet still people feel uncomfortable, as you said it could really hack someone off - that's what I don't see, why?
For most people it is sensitive - how did it get that way, it has never been with me.

I also don't see why people are so funny about it. People's weird sensitivity over disclosing their salary is one reason I work in the public sector where pay is much more transparent. The silly thing is that by playing the secrecy game, people are allowing employers to get away with unfair practices or even illegal discrimination. 

Undervalued

thebrexitunicorn said:

prowla said:

Some employers make it a condition that you do not disclose your salary.

(And hence by implication nobody does.)

An employer does not have the right to prevent employees sharing details of their salaries.  Such clauses should no longer be in contracts and if they do exist are void.  

Can you quote whatever legislation you believe supports those statements?

My understanding is that it is far more complicated than your sweeping statements would suggest and the legal protection is only for disclosures that are relevant to the 2010 equalities act?

Even if employees are allowed to disclose their salary doesn't meant they have to!

ArbitraryRandom

Undervalued said:

thebrexitunicorn said:

prowla said:

Some employers make it a condition that you do not disclose your salary.

(And hence by implication nobody does.)

An employer does not have the right to prevent employees sharing details of their salaries.  Such clauses should no longer be in contracts and if they do exist are void.  

Can you quote whatever legislation you believe supports those statements?

My understanding is that it is far more complicated than your sweeping statements would suggest and the legal protection is only for disclosures that are relevant to the 2010 equalities act?

Even if employees are allowed to disclose their salary doesn't meant they have to!

You've said yourself, it's the equality act - in practice it would be very unlikely an employer could prove the employee did not suspect any possible protected characteristic (and the onus would be on the employer to justify the enforcement) - hence in practice such terms are unenforceable. 

sheramber

Have you have you asked your work share colleague what rise she got?

That would be the way to find out, if they were willing to share.

The only person who knew how much I earned was my husband.It is nobody else’s business.

I did not know what my colleagues earned, nor my parents, sister, nor my children. It is none of my business.

Where my husband worked increased were cost of living for everyone and above that based on work record.  Some got nothing extra , others got  a percentage increase. 

lisyloo

Southend_2 said:

kempiejon said:

lisyloo said:

kempiejon said:

Previous role I was on a lower grade to my colleagues, I always told them. We had different job titles and I wasn't bothered my manager tried to explain to me why I got less money never to my satisfaction. When a new member of staff at taken on to cover my role and those others in the department I had to train them. When I pointed that out to my manager and HR they said they'd look at my role. I think sharing this sort of information is useful but most people feel uncomfortable doing so. I never got that. Why be embarrassed or cagey most people at work have a shrewd idea, why not just be open.

because it could really hack someone off.
It's a very sensitive subject for most people.

As a quick aside then @lisyloo you can probably help me. I said above  most staff must have a fair idea? Jobs are advertised and yet still people feel uncomfortable, as you said it could really hack someone off - that's what I don't see, why?
For most people it is sensitive - how did it get that way, it has never been with me.

I also don't see why people are so funny about it. People's weird sensitivity over disclosing their salary is one reason I work in the public sector where pay is much more transparent. The silly thing is that by playing the secrecy game, people are allowing employers to get away with unfair practices or even illegal discrimination. 

Some people consider this private personal data.
I've never worked for the type of organisations you mention in over 30 years, so that's not reality for some of us.

I don't mind sharing mine but I'm also sensitive to the fact that most people don't want to know my private data and it's not fair to push it on them.

kempiejon

lisyloo said:

kempiejon said:

lisyloo said:

kempiejon said:

Previous role I was on a lower grade to my colleagues, I always told them. We had different job titles and I wasn't bothered my manager tried to explain to me why I got less money never to my satisfaction. When a new member of staff at taken on to cover my role and those others in the department I had to train them. When I pointed that out to my manager and HR they said they'd look at my role. I think sharing this sort of information is useful but most people feel uncomfortable doing so. I never got that. Why be embarrassed or cagey most people at work have a shrewd idea, why not just be open.

because it could really hack someone off.
It's a very sensitive subject for most people.

As a quick aside then @lisyloo you can probably help me. I said above  most staff must have a fair idea? Jobs are advertised and yet still people feel uncomfortable, as you said it could really hack someone off - that's what I don't see, why?
For most people it is sensitive - how did it get that way, it has never been with me.

A colleague who is paid less who perceives they are as good as me, could be really hacked off if they find out they are paid less.
Many people are highly invested in their salary as a representation of their worth.
They employer may see me (for example) as a better performer and pay me more, the person on the receiving end of the lower salary with their subjective view may be very upset at the idea that they are a poorer performer and disagree strongly.

If it doesn't bother you then IME I'd say you were the exception and not the rule.

Ah thank you.
Good use of examples. I think the employee paid less than you could either take that to the management and make a case for getting the same money as you - if only they knew. That would benefit them.

Your employer should have an obligation to treat staff fairly and equitably and paying people different amounts to do the same job may be a form of discrimination. The secrecy allows this discrimination to propagate. An employer paid men more than women - the women even had a lower pay grade on their job description for the same role and title. It wasn't until this was shared that the discrimination was outed.
Alternatively the employer can use you on a higher rate as an incentive to demotivated employees to step up. 
You're right some people are so defined by their roles that is their badge of worth. So shouldn't they be shouting it not hiding it?

Anyhow it's not a rule that salary is secret but thanks for your insight, it sadly reiterates the problem. 

lisyloo

kempiejon said:

lisyloo said:

kempiejon said:

lisyloo said:

kempiejon said:

Previous role I was on a lower grade to my colleagues, I always told them. We had different job titles and I wasn't bothered my manager tried to explain to me why I got less money never to my satisfaction. When a new member of staff at taken on to cover my role and those others in the department I had to train them. When I pointed that out to my manager and HR they said they'd look at my role. I think sharing this sort of information is useful but most people feel uncomfortable doing so. I never got that. Why be embarrassed or cagey most people at work have a shrewd idea, why not just be open.

because it could really hack someone off.
It's a very sensitive subject for most people.

As a quick aside then @lisyloo you can probably help me. I said above  most staff must have a fair idea? Jobs are advertised and yet still people feel uncomfortable, as you said it could really hack someone off - that's what I don't see, why?
For most people it is sensitive - how did it get that way, it has never been with me.

A colleague who is paid less who perceives they are as good as me, could be really hacked off if they find out they are paid less.
Many people are highly invested in their salary as a representation of their worth.
They employer may see me (for example) as a better performer and pay me more, the person on the receiving end of the lower salary with their subjective view may be very upset at the idea that they are a poorer performer and disagree strongly.

If it doesn't bother you then IME I'd say you were the exception and not the rule.

Ah thank you.
Good use of examples. I think the employee paid less than you could either take that to the management and make a case for getting the same money as you - if only they knew. That would benefit them.

Your employer should have an obligation to treat staff fairly and equitably and paying people different amounts to do the same job may be a form of discrimination. The secrecy allows this discrimination to propagate. An employer paid men more than women - the women even had a lower pay grade on their job description for the same role and title. It wasn't until this was shared that the discrimination was outed.
Alternatively the employer can use you on a higher rate as an incentive to demotivated employees to step up. 
You're right some people are so defined by their roles that is their badge of worth. So shouldn't they be shouting it not hiding it?

Anyhow it's not a rule that salary is secret but thanks for your insight, it sadly reiterates the problem. 

Discrimination on merit is perfectly valid.
Discrimination is only illegal when is based on certain protected characteristics like (solely) gender.
I don't work in the kind of organisation where we all stack the same number of backed beans every day.
If someone makes £2 million worth of sales and another person makes £1 million then do you not agree that it's valid for one to be paid more than the other?

In the example I was using the lower paid person isn't WORTH the same as the higher paid person.
The management have been entirely fair (in the places I work) although sometimes it's subjective.
The sales example I gave was very quantifiable, many times it isn't and it's somewhat subjective.

I would agree that if you all do exactly the same then you should be paid the same.
That isn't the kind of role I work in where 1 person can be 10 times as valuable to the business as someone else.

Do you think all authors ought to be paid the same as J K Rowling?
Of course not, some people are massively more successful than others.

I think I work in different environments to others on here, when it's not a case of everyone stacking the same number of cans of baked beans.

kempiejon

Well we're veering of my point which was an aside to the OP.

So @lisyloo those who bring in more business, should be paid more. Well done for rising in your chosen occupation but what I was really saying is I don't see why that then is a secret. The OP wanted to see if their colleague had been treated fairly. I suggest talking openly about salary would probable clear any confusion. @lisyloo said people would get hacked off if their salary was known. I may have misinterpreted that but I can see no reason why it should cause upset. 

mr_stripey

Take a professional football club for example.

The first team playing staff all have the same job, but will have vastly different salaries based on performance, "star" quality etc

lisyloo

kempiejon said:

Well we're veering of my point which was an aside to the OP.

So @lisyloo those who bring in more business, should be paid more. Well done for rising in your chosen occupation but what I was really saying is I don't see why that then is a secret. The OP wanted to see if their colleague had been treated fairly. I suggest talking openly about salary would probable clear any confusion. @lisyloo said people would get hacked off if their salary was known. I may have misinterpreted that but I can see no reason why it should cause upset. 

Well I've tried to explain.
person A is considered better by the management than person B and paid more.
If we're comparing sales totals of £1 million and £2 million then it's very quantifiable.
If we're comparing something less quantifiable then it becomes subjective.

It causes upset when people often don't agree with being ranked lower than someone else.

Salary to some people is a private matter. 
You may not agree with them but you should acknowledge that others have different opinions and if it's their confidential information then they are entitled to keep it private. I'm pretty sure in HR/legal/official terms it's considered private and confidential.

I work as a sub-contrator but I'm paid more than direct employees.
I have fewer benefits.
Someone comparing headline salaries and not looking in context at the benefits package might get upset.
Why would I want to cause upset for my clients employees?
Even if I discuss the full context with someone it will go round the rumour mill and someone will get the wrong end of the stick.