UC review and holidays

later

Hi there

My husband and I both work full time. We have disabled children and get UC as well as DLA for one, PIP for me and the caring element of UC. 

We have booked an expensive holiday (£11k) for next autumn. It’s where my disabled eldest has always wanted to go. It’ll be a case of paying off every month, basically the DLA and PIP but sometimes putting more than that towards it. It’ll all go to the same holiday company.

We are very fortunate to be able to do that and it’ll be a once in a lifetime thing.

What my concern is I’ve seen a lot of stuff about universal credit reviews and them “deciding if you get too much benefit” and scrutinising what you’re spending money on. 

This isn’t deliberate deprivation of capital as it’s basically for my eldest me mental health (it gives them something to look forward to) but I’m just checking I’m not breaking any rules? All of the money we get is either salary or UC, no random or regular payments in. 

I understand that some may feel anger towards me being able to do this (even if once) and I’m not asking about morals as my eldest has mental health issues which is why they get DLA. I’ve been on the other side of this where I’ve been unemployed living off £70 a fortnight so I get that, but I just ask for no hate and just a factual response please. 

Thank you in advance 

peteuk

For me its about optics... youve said it yourself family of four on UC goes on £11K holiday.  However from a practicle point of view. 

I take it your sons DLA goes into an account in his name, but ran by yourself. fow which you both could be a millionaire, DLA and PIP is not means tested.  However you claim UC as well. 

If youve been saving your PIP, then it becomes capital the the assessment period after it is paid.  If checked this may be classed as DoC.   A holiday is allowed but a spectaculer expensive holiday may be seen by a DM as DoC. 

UC allows a holiday abroad for a month, PIP is four weeks. So the length of the holiday can effect your PIP and UC claim. 

If away and you get ID checked on your UC (four months bank statement and photo ID) you have a set period of time to comply.  I believe the time period is 14 days. (Happy to be corrected) 

HillStreetBlues

later said:

This isn’t deliberate deprivation of capital as it’s basically for my eldest me mental health (it gives them something to look forward to) but I’m just checking I’m not breaking any rules? All of the money we get is either salary or UC, no random or regular payments in. 

It can only be deprivation of capital if you have over £6k of capital.
It sounds like you have the holiday on credit and are repaying it that so that is totally fine. Also if that's the case what you spend your money on is up to you, they can't reduce UC because of what you have spend it on.
What you would have to do while you are holiday is fulfil  your claimant commitments while away.

Muttleythefrog

Obviously any large savings (£6k or more) will affect your U/C and you should report this or it would be fraud.. but I understand you are paying for this in instalments or similar over time rather than holding a lump sum. This is helpful if so as rather than disposing of large sums to bring within savings limits you'd be spending over months smaller amounts. But as per Pete above.. I don't think we can answer your question definitively. In fact recently on the boards there has been a large number of enquiries about what is considered deprivation of capital. There are guidelines and where it comes down to subjective judgement by a Decision Maker and given the lack of information on decisions they are taking we cannot know. This could be considered deprivation of capital or it may not based on justification for the expenditure. Giving any black and white answer risks one day someone becoming destitute because they deprived themselves of money we thought would not likely be considered DoC but later was leading to loss of benefit entitlements relied on.

I would say this. If you are never holding more than £6k in savings I think you're not likely to face any issue including if you do have a review that looks at 4 months of bank statements which show instalment payments for a holiday. But I cannot assure that... Decision Makers and enquiries can vary.. I recently had a decision on housing costs for U/C by the same decision maker as previous year that was totally different... so even the same mind with the same rules under consideration and repeated facts cannot be relied on to reach the same view... and when I challenged they came to a different decision again. And in this case more subjectivity would be required... 

Here's a bit of advice.... is it possible to use a credit card to make the payments... if so DO SO. Credit card statements do not appear to be getting checked including in my recent review where bank statements and paypal account statements were requested... significant payments to credit cards were never queried. Paying off debts is not consider DoC for U/C purposes. I'm not sure though if having already booked you will have set out how payment is made.

My advice would be different if you are holding £6k or more savings at any time as different considerations apply with higher risks of detection and determination of DoC applicable. In worst case scenario DoC was determined then obviously that would only impact means tested benefits and not the disability benefits currently received - this is worth mentioning since it could come down to your risk assessment... and questions like worst case scenario will we be okay if we lost U/C or part of it. My gut on this is go for it.

But the length of holiday is a consideration and I can't see mention of it - different benefits variant rules on impact.. U/C is a month away without issue. Aim for maximum 4 weeks given disability benefits also in play but since you've already booked it may be a moot point - I take it it isn't longer than 4 weeks?

Spoonie_Turtle

HillStreetBlues said:

later said:

This isn’t deliberate deprivation of capital as it’s basically for my eldest me mental health (it gives them something to look forward to) but I’m just checking I’m not breaking any rules? All of the money we get is either salary or UC, no random or regular payments in. 

It can only be deprivation of capital if you have over £6k of capital.
It sounds like you have the holiday on credit and are repaying it that so that is totally fine. Also if that's the case what you spend your money on is up to you, they can't reduce UC because of what you have spend it on.
What you would have to do while you are holiday is fulfil  your claimant commitments while away.

Agreed, and especially important is the bit in bold if you're not reducing savings below the £6,000 threshold for it.  You say you'll be using the PIP and DLA each month, that's spending income (as it would be if you put your monthly UC and/or regular wages towards it) and UC have no basis whatsoever to say anything about it.

With the claimant commitment, I assume you have none of any note since you both work full-time.  Just make sure to check your journal a couple of times while you're away to make sure you don't miss any messages.

I hope you're all able to enjoy your holiday, OP!

peteuk

DoC question, if I have £5.5K savings, and at the end of my assessment period I have £1K (meaning capital of £6.5K)but then spend £500 towards a holiday.  Is this DoC?

Equally it it the same as if I had £4.5K savings, £1K added at the end of the assessment period so £5.5K but put £500 towards a holiday…and then get asked for 4 months bank statements.

HillStreetBlues

peteuk said:

DoC question, if I have £5.5K savings, and at the end of my assessment period I have £1K (meaning capital of £6.5K)but then spend £500 towards a holiday.  Is this DoC?

Equally it it the same as if I had £4.5K savings, £1K added at the end of the assessment period so £5.5K but put £500 towards a holiday…and then get asked for 4 months bank statements.

Once over £6k (at end of AP) DoC is possible but can only be on the amount above the £6k so for the 1st example only £500 could be DoC. But  I think very very unlikely it would be.
If under £6k it can never be DoC.
It's the same with borrowed money, have £5k in capital borrow £50k  for a £55k holiday, that's fine In this case you would have to buy holiday before borrowing the money,  if you  borrowed the money first  then bought a holiday then that could and properly would be DoC.

Spoonie_Turtle

peteuk said:

DoC question, if I have £5.5K savings, and at the end of my assessment period I have £1K (meaning capital of £6.5K)but then spend £500 towards a holiday.  Is this DoC?

Equally it it the same as if I had £4.5K savings, £1K added at the end of the assessment period so £5.5K but put £500 towards a holiday…and then get asked for 4 months bank statements.

Unlikely, you can barely get a week's family holiday for that nowadays.

Anyway, where did the £1k come from?  If it's unspent income for that AP, it's still income.  It doesn't become capital unless it remains unspent at the end of AP after the one in which you received it.

The latter scenario is irrelevant as it doesn't affect your UC at the time of spending.

peteuk

@Spoonie_Turtle it was hypothetical, the point I was questioning is the four month bank statement check.

Put another way…when they check four months of statements and notice a regular payment which keeps them under the £6K level, does this trigger a deeper look? 

It was a question for my understanding as son is about to inherit a small amount,  Which will take him close to the £6K level.  Which leads to another question. 

HillStreetBlues

peteuk said:

@Spoonie_Turtle it was hypothetical, the point I was questioning is the four month bank statement check.

Put another way…when they check four months of statements and notice a regular payment which keeps them under the £6K level, does this trigger a deeper look? 

It was a question for my understanding as son is about to inherit a small amount,  Which will take him close to the £6K level.  Which leads to another question. 

It's possible they could question cash withdraws to try to ascertain if someone is trying to hide money to keep under the £6k lower limit.
You can "waste" money if you are under the £6k to keep under that limit, that is fine. You can't be penalised for deliberately staying under £6k

EDIT
What someone in the review team might or might not want nobody can say. If under £6k they shouldn't be questioning spending, but it seems they do.

later

Thanks for your comments. The most that would be paid is £3k when my balance is £4k so no deliberate reduction to under £6k. That’s for flights. 

It’s a 2 week holiday to Disney World. Unfortunately due to disability doing something like a villa nearby would be very stressful for the child so we booked a suite in their hotels. Self catering.