Water damage in flat I am buying

kerlins175

I am in the process of purchasing a leasehold flat on the first floor of an early 1900s converted house with another flat above. Upon my second viewing I noticed what looks to me like water damage from a leak from above on the ceiling in the bedroom. In the corner of ceiling there is also mould and there’s a crack (in the paint?) on the ceiling near to the damage too.

The flat has been rented out for the past few years and neither the estate agents and the seller both have said in writing that they’re not aware of any leak or water damage as an issue which has been reported or fixed in the past.

I’m not really sure what my next steps should be with this and how bad of an issue this could end up. 

I have not yet got a survey done but this is my next step but due to this I’m not sure what level I should be getting either.

AlexMac

I’m surprised no one has responded, dunno about surveys, and I’m no expert apart from my having owned 5 Victorian homes, a few of them flat conversions, and having also several personal experiences of  the inevitable  leaks you get from above in properties like these. 

But

At the moment, it’s the owner’s problem irrespective of their denials of knowledge and whether they are too idle to go take a look.   If you buy it without insisting on a fix it will become your problem. 

And again, irrespective of who is responsible, and while it’s not yet down to you, the first step in any damp problem is to diagnose the source. 

There are only three sources of damp in houses;
- 1 rising (obviously, from below, and usually due to faulty, absent or “bridged” Damp Proof Courses)
- 2 condensation (from atmospheric moisture condensing on cold surfaces, aggravated by poor heating, inadequate ventilation and/or excessive moisture from cooking, washing, showering, drying clothes. 

- 3 penetrating (from any number of sources;  
—- leaky or splashy roofs, gutters, waste pipes & downpipes, uncapped and poorly ventilated chimneys and chimney breasts…)
—- cracked or damaged render, pointing, seals or flashing on external walls or surfaces, or
—- internal leaks from plumbing; pipes, badly sealed baths or shower trays, inadequately connected washing machines, basin overflows etc or even major spills. 

Your pictures aren’t much help,  but if as you imply, there is visible damp coursing down walls and across ceiling plaster (and unless there’s an obvious outside source such as a leaking or blocked gutter, pipe or “hopper”) it’s almost inevitably penetration from the flat above. 

Condensation does linger in corners, due to poor airflow, but that looks less likely. 

So the owner or their agent should be asking ‘im or ‘er or them upstairs (depending on their preferred pronoun?) what’s above. a bathroom? Kitchen?  Bearing in mind that water can travel; my mate was accused of saturating his neighbour’s wall adjacent to his ( the mate’s) gutters, when the source was several meters above and to the side; a leaky bathroom pipe sending water through the upstairs internal wall and sideways to the downstairs ground floor brickwork. 

Once the leak is fixed, you’ll be surprised at how fast a well ventilated room dries out and how easy and cheap it is to remedy; (fill, obliterate, redecorate …). That crack looks trivial too, unless there are lots of cracks elsewhere. 

But it ain’t YOUR problem

yet. Ignore it and it will be. Damp. Wood rot. Further movement and many years hence, collapse of joists and ceilings 

ThisIsWeird

Pics 1&3 appear to show a water ring/tide mark on the ceiling, and this can only be caused by the presence of water on the other side of the ceiling boards. Ie, it's not caused by 'damp', but actual 'liquid' water.
The second pic shows mould forming in a ceiling corner, and this can occur with bad cases of condensation. However, it also shows what seems to be clearly defined water tide lines running along the ceiling and walls from that corner, and these are too sharp-edged and defined to be cond, so - again - is almost certainly from actual 'water' coming from above.
So, imo, it's almost certainly 'penetrating', as Mac described in his comprehensive reply above; either from a plumbing leak from the flat above, or coming through an external wall. It's possibly it's even from higher up - an upper flat, or leaking roof, and it's finding its way down to 'your' flat.
Bottom line - this is from an external source to the flat, so is a Freeholder issue to resolve; it's part of the building fabric.
Ask the vendor to report the matter to their FH, so it'll be resolved by the time you move in. Be very wary if they do not; they simply should. As Mac also said, left unattended it could lead to more serious damage such as timber rot, requiring building work. Caught at the current stage, almost certainly it'll dry out and cause only a light cosmetic issue, largely sortable by stain block and paint.
Once you buy, get good contents insurance that'll cover repairs to the fabric of your interior, and also include Legal Protection, to protect yourself from such issues in future.

Albermarle

My first instinct was that it is possibly the result of an old leak, rather than a current one. In which case the damage is rather minor. I had something similar in a downstairs bathroom . A bit of polyfilla and a few coats of paint and no sign of it.
However of course if it is a current leak that is more of an issue of course.

kerlins175

Albermarle said:

My first instinct was that it is possibly the result of an old leak, rather than a current one. In which case the damage is rather minor. I had something similar in a downstairs bathroom . A bit of polyfilla and a few coats of paint and no sign of it.
However of course if it is a current leak that is more of an issue of course.

This is what I was hoping but unfortunately I don’t think I have any way to find out

kerlins175

AlexMac said:

I’m surprised no one has responded, dunno about surveys, and I’m no expert apart from my having owned 5 Victorian homes, a few of them flat conversions, and having also several personal experiences of  the inevitable  leaks you get from above in properties like these. 

But

At the moment, it’s the owner’s problem irrespective of their denials of knowledge and whether they are too idle to go take a look.   If you buy it without insisting on a fix it will become your problem. 

And again, irrespective of who is responsible, and while it’s not yet down to you, the first step in any damp problem is to diagnose the source. 

There are only three sources of damp in houses;
- 1 rising (obviously, from below, and usually due to faulty, absent or “bridged” Damp Proof Courses)
- 2 condensation (from atmospheric moisture condensing on cold surfaces, aggravated by poor heating, inadequate ventilation and/or excessive moisture from cooking, washing, showering, drying clothes. 

- 3 penetrating (from any number of sources;  
—- leaky or splashy roofs, gutters, waste pipes & downpipes, uncapped and poorly ventilated chimneys and chimney breasts…)
—- cracked or damaged render, pointing, seals or flashing on external walls or surfaces, or
—- internal leaks from plumbing; pipes, badly sealed baths or shower trays, inadequately connected washing machines, basin overflows etc or even major spills. 

Your pictures aren’t much help,  but if as you imply, there is visible damp coursing down walls and across ceiling plaster (and unless there’s an obvious outside source such as a leaking or blocked gutter, pipe or “hopper”) it’s almost inevitably penetration from the flat above. 

Condensation does linger in corners, due to poor airflow, but that looks less likely. 

So the owner or their agent should be asking ‘im or ‘er or them upstairs (depending on their preferred pronoun?) what’s above. a bathroom? Kitchen?  Bearing in mind that water can travel; my mate was accused of saturating his neighbour’s wall adjacent to his ( the mate’s) gutters, when the source was several meters above and to the side; a leaky bathroom pipe sending water through the upstairs internal wall and sideways to the downstairs ground floor brickwork. 

Once the leak is fixed, you’ll be surprised at how fast a well ventilated room dries out and how easy and cheap it is to remedy; (fill, obliterate, redecorate …). That crack looks trivial too, unless there are lots of cracks elsewhere. 

But it ain’t YOUR problem

yet. Ignore it and it will be. Damp. Wood rot. Further movement and many years hence, collapse of joists and ceilings 

Thank you this is a lot of info! I think it must be 3 - it really looks like it has come directly from above however now you say it - it is by the outside wall so possibly could be from a gutter etc. 
they are pretty poor photos - taken from a video I took of ceiling

AskAsk

you will need to get the survey done and ask about the leak through your solicitors.  it could be something that could be negotiated into the price if there is remedial work needed.

ThisIsWeird

kerlins175 said:

Albermarle said:

My first instinct was that it is possibly the result of an old leak, rather than a current one. In which case the damage is rather minor. I had something similar in a downstairs bathroom . A bit of polyfilla and a few coats of paint and no sign of it.
However of course if it is a current leak that is more of an issue of course.

This is what I was hoping but unfortunately I don’t think I have any way to find out

Your survey - however minor - will pick this up (or should). You don't need a fancy survey, as all these sorts of issues are FreeHolder. You just need to make the seller aware that they need to sort it before the purchase progresses.

Almost certainly this is an 'external' issue to the flat, so involves the Freeholder. All you should have to do - once the cause is sorted, and you've moved in - is to redecorate afterwards if it hasn't already been done (for which you try and arrange a small discount from the seller :-) )

BUT, you need to pass the buck on to the seller to sort this. They MUST get in touch with the FH if they haven't already done so.

Yes, it could be 'old', but the presence of actual mould suggests 'not'; they'd have surely zapped that once (if) the cause was fixed?

kerlins175

ThisIsWeird said:

kerlins175 said:

Albermarle said:

My first instinct was that it is possibly the result of an old leak, rather than a current one. In which case the damage is rather minor. I had something similar in a downstairs bathroom . A bit of polyfilla and a few coats of paint and no sign of it.
However of course if it is a current leak that is more of an issue of course.

This is what I was hoping but unfortunately I don’t think I have any way to find out

Your survey - however minor - will pick this up (or should). You don't need a fancy survey, as all these sorts of issues are FreeHolder. You just need to make the seller aware that they need to sort it before the purchase progresses.

Almost certainly this is an 'external' issue to the flat, so involves the Freeholder. All you should have to do - once the cause is sorted, and you've moved in - is to redecorate afterwards if it hasn't already been done (for which you try and arrange a small discount from the seller :-) )

BUT, you need to pass the buck on to the seller to sort this. They MUST get in touch with the FH if they haven't already done so.

Yes, it could be 'old', but the presence of actual mould suggests 'not'; they'd have surely zapped that once (if) the cause was fixed?

I will do as you said and get back to the vendor via estate agents - I’m just concerned about them thinking I’m causing too many issues for them and potentially pulling out but I clearly need to do it!

Relieving to hear that this could potentially be a freeholder issue to sort, I guess I’ll have to get a copy of building insurance if possible.

NameUnavailable

The crack is just plaster shrinkage, bit of pollyfiller and a paint and it will be OK.

As for the damp and mould they could be related. Whilst the freeholder might be responsible to fix the the problem causing the damp, it will be charged to YOU via the service charges and they won't be responsible to pay for the internal redecoration.

If you want to proceed with this flat get it investigated further and use it to negotiate on the price or be prepared to purchase the sellers problems.