UC Overpayment

Largs

Hello.

Wonder if someone could advise about overpayment on Universal credit. It's a long story and a large overpayment whilst waiting on ESA new style to be processed so will try to keep it short.

I agree with their calculations on 3 of the 4 monthly periods but it's the last period I don't understand. I initially asked for written statement of reasons but the person who called couldn't explain it as she said it's all done by computer rather than a decision maker. I've been waiting since 1 May for reconsideration but they have said there is no timescale for this to be done.

My assessment period was 6th Feb to 5th March.

On 14th Feb I got £169.60 (was on assessment phase of £84.80 weekly) and 28th Feb also £169.60. But on 5th March, the last day of my period I became entitled to Support Group rate of £129.50.

UC is saying for this period I was overpaid £561.16. This is £129.50 X 52 ÷ 12. When I feel the correct calculation is £84.80 X 52 ÷12 £367.46.

I feel they are asking me to pay back nearly £200 more than I received. 

No one at UC can explain and although they said It can go to tribunal, I would prefer not to. Does anyone know if the calculation is correct?

xxxxxxxx

Please give more information, with full dates i.e. the year too.
Start date of ESA? (What did you apply for as your start date of ESA) was a waiting period of 7 days served on ESA, i.e. did you claim ESA after SSP stopped? 

Start date of UC  (the current claim)? Was this your first ever claim to UC? details

Did you declare a health condition affects your ability to work in UC on your UC claim application final declaration?
If not, what date was the first date you reported a change to health to UC, declaring a health condition affecting your ability to work?

Whilst UC was paying you every month were they deducting ESA C out of your UC?
UC should have been deducting £367.46 per month for ESA, however the first AP in which ESA started, the amount would be lower.

Was ESA paying you every 2 weeks from the start of the ESA claim?

Did ESA pay any arrears? details...

What was the date of the WCA decision? You will find it in the journal.

Ask in the UC Journal for them to copy paste the entire overpayment calculation, if they already did this for you, then copy paste it here.

This was a quick decision... maybe I'm wrong with that, I got confused when you said my assessment period was feb to mar I thought you meant your ESA assessment period.
Do you have a terminal illness with an SR1 form? If not, do you receive cancer treatment? If not which support group descriptor or other entitlement did you satisfy?

That will do for now. I may have more questions.

Largs

Hi.

Applied for ESA in November. It was paid in March arrears. About £1200. Waiting days were served although I think that's wrong. Previously was being paid UC with the LWCRA component. That was awarded in October last year, after the 3 months period on the standard rate. UC stopped 30 April when I asked them to close claim and the overpayment was notified to me.

So that's the background. It's this final assessment period calculation that I need to get to the bottom of. 

I was awarded support group on 5th March, last day of my assessment period but they have taken that new rate and applied it backwards to start of the assessment period. They are saying I was paid £561 by ESA when I was paid £367.

xxxxxxxx

There is not enough information or dates to give an answer. Please answer all the questions I put to you with exact dates and figures...

Also, I am willing to check your UC payment of Lcwra. You appear to be unwisely assuming UC and ESA have paid you correctly so far and not taking this opportunity to have that checked.

additional qus
How much was UC arrears in October 2023?

£561 is simply the rate of ESA per month with the SG. @ 129.50

Did ESA pay you any arrears before the £1200?

Did you get statutory sick pay from an employer? When did it end?

What is the full amount of UC overpayment and the month by month breakdown?

ESA initially paid you 367, but then in their arrears of 1200 they paid you 561

Why did you close UC? The only reason can be UC was paying £0  Why was UC paying £0?  Occupational Pension?

 How much is the Occ Pen Gross ? Did you report the Occ Pen to ESA?

Largs

Hi.
Thanks for reply.

I didn't get any UC arrears. I was getting carers allowance topped up by UC until my dad passed away. I continued on UC but with sick notes.

In October last year my UC increased as I was assessed asking having LWCRA though no arrears were paid, just an increase 

The £1200 (approx) was arrears of ESA paying me from November until March. I don't get any pensions.

I have 4 overpayment periods

6/11 to 5/12.  £12.11 - this is 1 day at £84.80 ESA assessment phase. ESA was awarded from 5/12 after serving 7 waiting days 28/11 to 4/12. I accept this is correct.

6/12 to 5/01 £367.46. This is £84.80 x52÷12.  Again I understand this figure.

6/01 to 5/02. £367.46. As above.

6/02 to 5,/03. £561.16. This is where  I was awarded support group £129.50 from 5/03 but I didn't receive any increase in ESA payments until 13 March, my next ESA payday.

Hope that's okay and thanks for any advice

xxxxxxxx

Largs said:

In October last year my UC increased as I was assessed asking having LWCRA though no arrears were paid, just an increase 

This could be incorrect, but I will not be able to help unless you answer all questions in comment #1 above dated Today at 1:26PM all dates must be in format dd/mm/yyyy

Largs said:

The £1200 (approx) was arrears of ESA paying me from November until March. I don't get any pensions.

Again, I cannot help unless I am told all of the exact details.

Largs said:

I have 4 overpayment periods

6/11 to 5/12.  £12.11 - this is 1 day at £84.80 ESA assessment phase. ESA was awarded from 5/12 after serving 7 waiting days 28/11 to 4/12. I accept this is correct.

6/12 to 5/01 £367.46. This is £84.80 x52÷12.  Again I understand this figure.

6/01 to 5/02. £367.46. As above.

6/02 to 5,/03. £561.16. This is where  I was awarded support group £129.50 from 5/03 but I didn't receive any increase in ESA payments until 13 March, my next ESA payday.

Hope that's okay and thanks for any advice

You need to understand that UC (it is essentially a computer) is basing the overpayment on the rates of ESA which have downloaded from ESA.  

Again, I need ALL of your ESA dates and payments down to the penny.   and please call ESA to ask them to tell you your ESA award rates and dates of change currently showing as live in payment from the start of ESA. i.e. 
28/11/2023 @ £0.00
05/12/2023 @ £84.80
05/03/2024 @ £129.50

ESA will also tell you all the dates and amounts of all payments so far and arrears amounts and dates the arrears covered, if you ask them.

You could ask UC journal to copy/paste all of your other benefits rates and dates into the journal.  To check what has downloaded.  I do not know if you can access this info from your UC account.

I can see your confusion, because it appears ESA has downloaded onto UC from 6/02/2024 @ £129.50
But this is not UC's fault, it depends what ESA has done. ... and a UC MR will fail.
If ESA paid £129.50 from 5/3/2024, then it has impossibly downloaded to UC incorrectly as £129.50 from 6/2/2024

Are you sure you did not claim ESA from 31/10/2023?

Over to you.

 

Largs

Hi. When I initially applied for ESA they checked my national insurance record and said I was not entitled. I went back to them and said I was on carers allowance for many years and the rules get relaxed (to do with national insurance contributions) they then awarded me the benefit. 

On another call to ESA when UC notified me of the overpayment and I was asking about my award and dates and amounts, he told me he couldn't tell me as my claim had been taken off the computer and done clerically.

When I appealed the overpayment I was told to make a new claim to UC as they couldn't look at that on a closed claim. I done this even though I wasn't entitled. Then when I started getting appointments, I called and was then told I don't need to make a new claim so this was closed. But in making the new claim, I lost access to my journal on the original claim. They can see both still. 

I did ask ESA why I had to serve 7 days when I was on another working age benefit previously and she told me this is correct as I would need to be in support group with UC for me not to serve waiting days. They don't have a support group though just LCWRA so I was confused.

So thanks again for advice, nothing is ever straightforward it seems and will go back to DWP.

xxxxxxxx

If you tell me ALL your ESA dates and payments, from your bank statements I can work it out for you. 
If the ESA is clerical, ask ESA for a call back to explain why it is clerical and to provide you with all award dates/rates and payment amounts made so far... If it is clerical because you refused DWP to inform your GP of the WCA result on your online ESA1, just tell them "I now give you permission and I want my ESA claim to be built onto the computer."

Because your ESA is clerical it had to be manually entered on to UC this is then the likely cause of the UC error in the overpayment.  But you need to be sure by asking ESA for all of the dates of award before going back to UC.

UC told you a load of rubbish to make a new claim to challenge the overpayment OMG! 

UC LCWRA is the same as ESA Support Group,  as to whether you have to serve 7 wait days, I will have to look that up to refresh my memory.

Why was UC paying £0.00 after ESA was awarded?  The fact that UC had full ESA award rate overpayments, for each month... i.e. £367.46 and £561.16 suggests that UC was not paying £0.00 and you were still entitled to UC (as most claimants would be because there is no other income).  So again, why did you close UC? Why do you say you are not entitled to UC?

And why are you having appointments on new UC other than the first appointment... when you have LCWRA from ESA?

Largs

Hi. I closed the claim as when my dad passed away his property transferred to myself. So I wouldn't be entitled to the benefit. This happend at end of April. UC was paying me correctly in April by deducting £561.16.

I was getting appointments for my new claim "verify capital' and ",prepare to meet your work coach" They were eventually cancelled as helpline said the can do a mandatory reconsideration on a closed claim.

That's not what I was told initially by the person who called me about the written statement of reasons.  

Thanks again for taking the time to help.

xxxxxxxx

Unless your inheritance also included cash that took you over £16,000 

You could have continued to claim UC as long as one of your 2 properties was listed for sale on the market it is disregarded as capital
UC Regs 2013 sch 10 para 6.  

Para 13, (this might have worked, not 100% sure)
If you were to then sell both houses but sell your own house first and then move into the inherited property and intend to use the proceeds of sale to buy a new home, you could disregard the proceeds of sale capital until the inherited house is sold,  then buy a new home. 

Yamor

There's been quite a lot of not-so-relevant questions on this thread, so I thought it might be simplest to just clarify the rules:

The calculation of "unearned income" for a UC assessment period is not based on how much is actually received, nor how much you were entitled to, in the AP.
What it actually depends on is the "rate" of entitlement on the last day of the AP.
As such, DWP have calculated your overpayment correctly, as you were entitled to a weekly rate of £129.50 on the last day of the AP ending 5th March. It is irrelevant that that rate only began on 5th March.
There is a specific exception where the unearned income starts or ends within an AP, in which case it does depend on how many days of entitlement there were during the AP. You saw this rule in practice yourself in the first AP in question.
However, that rule does not apply when there is simply a change to the rate of entitlement.