Indemnity for windows

Quiet_penguin

Hi All, 

Hoping to gauge/sense check my sense of the risk here. 

We are getting pretty close to exchange on a lovely - Listed (gulp) house.  However, it has just come to light that the sellers did not get listed building consent for some new windows they have just put in.  They are 'like for like' and made by a company who specialize in windows for listed buildings...but, still, the consent is not there.  Nobody has spoken to the council about this as yet and an indemnity policy is therefore possible (they've had quotes/confirmation that it's possible to take this out and will pay for it if we go down this route).  Our solicitor is saying we'll need to check this is acceptable to our lender, which is fair enough. Assuming it is, my understanding is that in the unlikely event the council were to take action and ask us to replace the windows we would then make a claim on the Indemnity Insurance for the resulting costs of any removal/replacement.  Obviously, on selling we'd have to hope any future buyer would be ok with the indemnity insurance/window issue too.  We've had a surveyor check the house and, apart from some things you'd expect in a building this age - and some annoying woodworm that we're going to need to get treated once we move in (have had a quote for that - not too bad), this is really the only sticking issue and we're keen to see how to move things forward, having come this far!  We've also confirmed consent is in place for all other alterations that have been made.

What are people's thoughts - a reasonable risk or no?

Thanks in advance, 

silvercar

If the new windows are acceptable to the listed building requirements, I’d be happy with an indemnity policy. It does raise the question of why they didn’t get consent in the first place, or apply for retrospective consent afterwards.

Less of an issue when you sell, as the windows will be older.

FreeBear

silvercar said: Less of an issue when you sell, as the windows will be older.

Agreed, it should be less of an issue as time passes. But there are no time limits for enforcement with LBC breaches like there are with "normal" planning/building control issues. And unfortunately, it is the current owner that has to put right any breaches rather than the person that did the work.

user1977

Quiet_penguin said:

it has just come to light that the sellers did not get listed building consent for some new windows they have just put in. 

That's the alarm bells bit for me - how recently? Insurers generally want "the dust to have settled" before they're prepared to offer cover.

Quiet_penguin

Thanks everyone, for your responses so far.  Yes they went in really recently - earlier this year.  But the quotes for cover are in place already (I've seen them) so I believe the issue of whether or not cover will be offered is decided - it will. So, it's just about whether we accept that Indemnity Cover or not.  I'm just seeking confirmation from them/the insurer that we will definitely be covered for the costs to replace the windows if it came to it: I've read that some policies only cover for the cost of council fines!  If we push for them to get consent, we won't end up with the house because others in the chain have time constraints, including our buyers.  Essentially everything will collapse at that point because of the time it will take.  That being said, I want to make sure I'm not being an idiot in agreeing to the indemnity just to keep things moving!

Southend_2

Personally, I would ask the vendors to get the council in to sign off the windows before proceeding. If they couldn't or wouldn't, then I would budget for replacement windows in the short term to be on the safe side (whether or not I ended up actually replacing them medium term). 

user1977

Quiet_penguin said:

the quotes for cover are in place already (I've seen them) Quotes usually have draft policies attached - haven't you seen those? Which insurers are they?

I've read that some policies only cover for the cost of council fines!  Sounds like nonsense. Where have you read this? Indemnity policies normally cover the full cost of sorting out the problem (or if they can't solve it, the diminution in value of the property). Your solicitor will in any event advise you on the policy.

Comments in bold above.

Quiet_penguin

Thanks for clarifying that and good to know that it's likely nonsense (it was on another forum, so I can believe it!).  Yes, I have seen one draft policy - with Axa, though it's just a sample and, actually we're planning to request they go with the next policy up, which is more expensive but has zero excess - the excess on the AXA one is £2500.  That quote is with Accredited Insurance Limited.  Sounds like in principle and indemnity is probably going to be fine. 

silvercar

FreeBear said:

silvercar said: Less of an issue when you sell, as the windows will be older.

Agreed, it should be less of an issue as time passes. But there are no time limits for enforcement with LBC breaches like there are with "normal" planning/building control issues. And unfortunately, it is the current owner that has to put right any breaches rather than the person that did the work.

Easier for a nervous future buyer, as the likelihood of the council taking any action years later - given they have taken no action in the meantime- must be lower. Plus the indemnity policy will have been in force for many years. Alternatively, enforcement action or replacement windows, will already been done and dusted.

Also, in answer to any questions on whether you, as the seller, has breached any LBC rules, you can answer ‘no’.

Herzlos

Silly question, but if the windows are like for like, why would consent be needed? I'm assuming it's the same materials and the same look, so other than them being cleaner how would anyone tell they are different?

FreeBear

silvercar said:

FreeBear said:

silvercar said: Less of an issue when you sell, as the windows will be older.

Agreed, it should be less of an issue as time passes. But there are no time limits for enforcement with LBC breaches like there are with "normal" planning/building control issues. And unfortunately, it is the current owner that has to put right any breaches rather than the person that did the work.

Easier for a nervous future buyer, as the likelihood of the council taking any action years later - given they have taken no action in the meantime- must be lower. Plus the indemnity policy will have been in force for many years. Alternatively, enforcement action or replacement windows, will already been done and dusted.

Also, in answer to any questions on whether you, as the seller, has breached any LBC rules, you can answer ‘no’.

It is not just the local council that can take enforcement action - Historic England can get in on the act too. And as mentioned earlier, there is no time limit.