Thames Water and Outside stop valves - how to get them to replace

TapONthehEad4

A very long story as short as possible. This could get very expensive, very quickly!

We have a seized inside stop valve (ISV).

We have a missing outside stop valve (OSV). Believed buried under the public pavement.

It isn’t possible to freeze the inside pipe leading up to the ISV as it’s made from alkathene.

It isn’t possible to install an inhibitor further up the pipe beyond the ISV as there’s no space.

Meanwhile, the OSV was the subject of about 4 visits from Thames Water. Watching what they did and talking to the crews they:

-          Never dug down deep enough

-          Never dug probably in the right place

-          50% of the time thought they were digging to find a leak and not an OSV

They finally said they were giving up and suggested freezing etc. They just didn't want to know!

Not happy we tried to forward the entire sorry mess onto the CCWater people but every time we do they are told that we haven’t exhausted the Thames Water complaints procedure and they can't  touch it. Even though I have told CCWater that it looks likely that Thames Water are deliberately blocking them from getting involved there appears to be nothing they can/will do.

Our situation now. We await a disastrous leak! Next steps are probably another fruitless go at Thames Water and then things will have to become legal.

Anybody got any tips about how best to motivate Thames Water to do a good job? Or how to motivate them to actually close the problem so that it can be looked at the CCWater.

Section62

TapONthehEad4 said:

A very long story as short as possible. This could get very expensive, very quickly!

We have a seized inside stop valve (ISV).

We have a missing outside stop valve (OSV). Believed buried under the public pavement.

It isn’t possible to freeze the inside pipe leading up to the ISV as it’s made from alkathene.

It isn’t possible to install an inhibitor further up the pipe beyond the ISV as there’s no space.

Meanwhile, the OSV was the subject of about 4 visits from Thames Water. Watching what they did and talking to the crews they:

-          Never dug down deep enough

-          Never dug probably in the right place

-          50% of the time thought they were digging to find a leak and not an OSV

They finally said they were giving up and suggested freezing etc. They just didn't want to know!

Not happy we tried to forward the entire sorry mess onto the CCWater people but every time we do they are told that we haven’t exhausted the Thames Water complaints procedure and they can't  touch it. Even though I have told CCWater that it looks likely that Thames Water are deliberately blocking them from getting involved there appears to be nothing they can/will do.

Our situation now. We await a disastrous leak! Next steps are probably another fruitless go at Thames Water and then things will have to become legal.

Anybody got any tips about how best to motivate Thames Water to do a good job? Or how to motivate them to actually close the problem so that it can be looked at the CCWater.

One option - thought it might have a long-term adverse financial impact - would be to ask them to fit a meter.  The meter will (should) have an integrated stop valve in the meter chamber.

Another option would be to get your own valve fitted outside - so long as it is on your property then it shouldn't be an issue.  Alkathene pipe can be 'clamped' to stop the flow, it wouldn't need to be frozen.  However I would only do clamping/freezing outside as you don't want to damage the pipe inside and have a potentially more expensive repair job.  You'd have to pay for the work yourself, but would avoid the risk of paying more for your water (at least until compulsory metering comes in)

ThisIsWeird

As I understand it, plastic, inc MDPE, pipe can be frozen successfully, but the issue is that it's much harder to do - it'll require a prolonged 'freeze' as it's a much better insulator, so a good-sized cylinder will be needed.
Quite scary if there's no way to turn off in the street, tho'.

rob7475

What's the pipe after the inside stop valve? If it's copper, you could fit an Aladdin valve that can be fitted without having to isolate the supply.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/aladdin-easyfit-isolator-starter-pack-15mm/36008?kpid=36008&cm_mmc=Google-_-Datafeed-_-Tools?kpid=KINASEKPID&cm_mmc=Google-_-TOKEN1-_-TOKEN2&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw65-zBhBkEiwAjrqRMKYvS5srVuF-9V4bHcBTCb1hgSi5bihrnNmU67PIcZITUV1ZEM2LNRoCOOgQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

I'm not sure I'd want to do it without having an option to isolate the supply if it goes wrong but it's an option.

TapONthehEad4

Section62 said:

TapONthehEad4 said:

A very long story as short as possible. This could get very expensive, very quickly!

We have a seized inside stop valve (ISV).

We have a missing outside stop valve (OSV). Believed buried under the public pavement.

It isn’t possible to freeze the inside pipe leading up to the ISV as it’s made from alkathene.

It isn’t possible to install an inhibitor further up the pipe beyond the ISV as there’s no space.

Meanwhile, the OSV was the subject of about 4 visits from Thames Water. Watching what they did and talking to the crews they:

-          Never dug down deep enough

-          Never dug probably in the right place

-          50% of the time thought they were digging to find a leak and not an OSV

They finally said they were giving up and suggested freezing etc. They just didn't want to know!

Not happy we tried to forward the entire sorry mess onto the CCWater people but every time we do they are told that we haven’t exhausted the Thames Water complaints procedure and they can't  touch it. Even though I have told CCWater that it looks likely that Thames Water are deliberately blocking them from getting involved there appears to be nothing they can/will do.

Our situation now. We await a disastrous leak! Next steps are probably another fruitless go at Thames Water and then things will have to become legal.

Anybody got any tips about how best to motivate Thames Water to do a good job? Or how to motivate them to actually close the problem so that it can be looked at the CCWater.

One option - thought it might have a long-term adverse financial impact - would be to ask them to fit a meter.  The meter will (should) have an integrated stop valve in the meter chamber.

Another option would be to get your own valve fitted outside - so long as it is on your property then it shouldn't be an issue.  Alkathene pipe can be 'clamped' to stop the flow, it wouldn't need to be frozen.  However I would only do clamping/freezing outside as you don't want to damage the pipe inside and have a potentially more expensive repair job.  You'd have to pay for the work yourself, but would avoid the risk of paying more for your water (at least until compulsory metering comes in)

Thanks for the reply but it's proving an issue just finding anybody that will tackle freezing Alkathene pipe at all. But we haven't explored all options as yet

TapONthehEad4

rob7475 said:

What's the pipe after the inside stop valve? If it's copper, you could fit an Aladdin valve that can be fitted without having to isolate the supply.



I'm not sure I'd want to do it without having an option to isolate the supply if it goes wrong but it's an option.

Sadly not enough space for this. The pipe immediately above is occupied by something else

ThisIsWeird

TapONthehEad4 said:

rob7475 said:

What's the pipe after the inside stop valve? If it's copper, you could fit an Aladdin valve that can be fitted without having to isolate the supply.



I'm not sure I'd want to do it without having an option to isolate the supply if it goes wrong but it's an option.

Sadly not enough space for this. The pipe immediately above is occupied by something else

Can this something else be bunched up a bit?

Section62

ThisIsWeird said:

TapONthehEad4 said:

rob7475 said:

What's the pipe after the inside stop valve? If it's copper, you could fit an Aladdin valve that can be fitted without having to isolate the supply.



I'm not sure I'd want to do it without having an option to isolate the supply if it goes wrong but it's an option.

Sadly not enough space for this. The pipe immediately above is occupied by something else

Can this something else be bunched up a bit?

Don't forget there's also the issue of working on the pipe indoors when there is no feasible method of cutting the supply off if something goes wrong.  If something did go wrong it could take hours for TW to find someone to send to site, for them to arrive, and finally dig a hole to access the pipe to cut the supply off.

Working on the pipe outside carries much less risk. (unless we were talking about a flat in a basement)

OP, you don't need to find someone willing to freeze the pipe... if they are competent to clamp it instead.

MattMattMattUK

You can freeze the pipe with either liquid nitrogen or dry ice, the normal freeze cans that plumbers use will not work. Liquid nitrogen will require a specialist, dry ice could be done oneself with adequate precautions, some plumbers will work with it but they are not normally cheap, though the amount of dry ice itself is something you could have delivered for around £50. Just make sure you know what you are doing first so you do not asphyxiate yourself or anyone else.

ThisIsWeird

Section62 said:

Don't forget there's also the issue of working on the pipe indoors when there is no feasible method of cutting the supply off if something goes wrong.  If something did go wrong it could take hours for TW to find someone to send to site, for them to arrive, and finally dig a hole to access the pipe to cut the supply off.

Working on the pipe outside carries much less risk. (unless we were talking about a flat in a basement)

OP, you don't need to find someone willing to freeze the pipe... if they are competent to clamp it instead.

Absolutely, which I why I said "Quite scary if there's no way to turn off in the street, tho'."

Have to say, I didn't know that MDPE could be clamped - I'd have thought the plastic would be stressed? Clearly not excessively.

TOTH4, who has looked at your internal S/C? Can it not be turned at all - has the shaft been sheared, for example?

Is it a normal brass T-handled stopcock? Anyone tried removing the gland nut and spraying inside? Applying heat? Thumping it...? Has everything been tried to determine it really won't budge?!

If your incoming is MDPE, it can't be that old?

Albermarle

ne option - thought it might have a long-term adverse financial impact - would be to ask them to fit a meter.  The meter will (should) have an integrated stop valve in the meter chamber.

For many people having a water meter has a positive financial impact. In any case if it was negative, it would probably work out cheaper than other solutions, so sounds like a good idea to me.