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Harassment by QEH Woolwich, Wise Parking, Trace Debt Recovery, BW Legal
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PCNs from unregulated private parking companies are nothing to do with criminal law. They are all to do with civil contract law and debt.
Not complying with PoFA is not breaking any law. It simply defines whether only the driver or also the keeper/hirer is liable for the alleged debt.2 -
london_memories said:We have already seen these fraudsters flaunt the codes of practice laid down by the regulatory bodies they signed up to, because nobody is going to enforce it...3
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@LDast the PCNs themselves are purely civil - that part is true, but the manner in which an alleged debt is pursued may become a criminal matter, for example, if they threaten you with court proceedings when they have not got their ducks-in-a-row to get a successful case in court, then they are making unlawful demands for money. Compare with the mafia turning up on your doorstep and say, "Give us money or we'll ruin your day". My day is already ruined - I have to spend days or weeks of my time in defence of an unlawful demand, and that is why - for the majority of cases - their business model works.
The Citizens Advice Bureau defines "ignoring you when you say you don't owe the money" as harassment, for which there can be criminal consequences, but there is also a civil remedy for, under the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.
See also Ferguson v British Gas, "I would think it entirely proper for a prosecutor such as a Trading Standards Officer, to bring criminal proceedings in respect of a case where there has been such a period of persistent conduct and such threats as are pleaded here."1 -
@KeithP The BPA and IPC, whilst it may be laughable to call them "regulatory", do, in fact publish Codes of Practice for their members to follow, and the POFA requires that they follow them in case they want to rely on POFA. The BPA do at least publish some form of enforcement for non-compliance, however laughable and lax it appears to be, at least at first glance. I don't see a similar thing on the IPC website immediately.1
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I wish you luck in your endeavour. However, I believe you are on a hiding to nothing because if you think Trading Standards or the police are going to bother with the effort for what is, essentially a civil matter.
Anyone can bring a civil claim for harassment or discrimination. It's just that the majority of people have no idea how to go about it and imagine it is beyond their capabilities to do so.2 -
@LDast sorry I updated my post while you were responding - please re-read.
Bringing a civil claim is too daunting or time-wasting for 99% of the population, agreed.
As stated previously, for a single case, the Police and Trading Standards will be useless. But if enough complaints are lodged with Action Fraud and Trading Standards to reach their particular threshold, then investigations may start to happen. We need to change our thinking, so instead of, "The system doesn't work for us", maybe think instead, "So if the system is set up like this less useful way for the individual, then how do we get it to work for us as a community?"
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london_memories said:...instead of, "The system doesn't work for us", maybe think instead, "So if the system is set up like this less useful way for the individual, then how do we get it to work for us as a community?"
Have a read of this...
private-parking-code-of-practice-latest-developments
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As a community we have been fighting for change for a decade,crowd funding court cases and lobbying MPs to change the system as well, plus people like coupon mad getting on committees, people like Bargepole, coupon mad, Parking mad , troublemaker42 , Johnersh and many other members on here and elsewhere assisting others too by helping joe public on forums and in court, getting barristers to work pro bono etc
The MPs have had thousands of complaints over the years and not one MP or Lord voted against the private menbers bill 5 or 6 years ago. Apparently the recent election announcement prompted actions on that final part requiring the new government to finish the job, so clearly the fightback is working
I don't see how anyone can dismiss all the fights, claims assistance and getting the Private Parking Bill 2019 by Sir Greg Knight MP over the line 5 years ago, 3 years after the green paper private bill started . the last obstacle of the DLUHC is very, very late in coming but very close to fruition
I don't think that there is anything wrong with the thinking so far, just the abominably slow time its taken to get the system of regulation with an independent ADR in place up and running
To suggest otherwise is disrespectful to those involved in the 9 years of fighting once the Beavis case took place3 -
@Gr1pr I mean no disrespect, and I don't mean to be dismissive. You guys have saved my skin on a number of occasions, as I always visit these forums for advice as I have to fight a ticket roughly least once every year or two, and unless I'm bang to rights I always fight. All I'm suggesting is, until the new code comes into play, perhaps these (being Police, TS and MPs) are additional tools in the arsenal which we have not used enough so far, and a change of perception within our community about their function may be all it takes to bring about a greater takeup of these options.
I was not aware of the point you made about MPs not voting against the bill, so thanks for bringing that to my attention.
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We need to change our thinking, so instead of, "The system doesn't work for us", maybe think instead, "So if the system is set up like this less useful way for the individual, then how do we get it to work for us as a community?"We did (we do think that way) and that's why I've been on the DLUHC Steering Group for the Private Parking project since 2020 and helped write the statutory code. You can see 'my' words in it, including: "double dip" and plenty more including the Annexes about banned DRA words and exempt activity/cases where a PCN must be cancelled. They didn't get there without my input helping! The APAs and PPCs had their say too. It was interesting to say the least! Fun too. Consumer power.
The delay after delay has been agonising but it is almost ready to go. After the GE of course, now.
Trading Standards will take no interest and nor would Action Fraud. They say it's a civil matter and if a company thinks you owe them money then they assume you do owe it. Terrible but that's the mindset re aggressive 'debt' chasing.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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