Replacing old overnight storage heaters..

doodling

Hi,

As others have said, from a running cost point of view the best option would be a heat pump system.

If that is too expensive to install then the next best option is new high heat retention storage heaters.

All the other options after that involve the use of expensive peak rate electricity at significant expense.

Any kind of heater where stuff is burnt in the same air as the rooms (e.g. oil or bottled gas) comes with the problem that you need to have so much ventilation to avoid condensation (the main products of combustion are CO2 and water) and the risk of CO poisoning that the economics never look as good as you think.

coffeehound

Another option would be to check whether the existing NSHs can be repaired and brought back up to standard.  They may just have one or more broken elements that need replacing.  

Then have an electrician fit a contactor and timer to switch them on for the GO off-peak hours.  If more heat is needed in the evening then supplmental heaters could fill in.  An air-to-air heatpump might be an option for that supplemental heat too.

Scot_39

Moley27272 said:

Mark_d said:

I really like the idea of these

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B081Z8XVNL

Thanks, I like the look of these. My rooms are around 14" x10.5" so 2000w would work. Are they efficient and economical ?

Apart from per room through the wall air to air reverse air con compressor style heat pump heater per  room or a full blown ashp style heater - the efficiency will be similar in the  high 90s.

Although most modern nsh need 2 supplies restricted for main charge and live - the Quantum series can run off one live feed and main charge set to match off peak meter timings. 

The difference will be the price you pay for the electricity.  Which over a few years might easily overcome purchase costs of air to air or more moden hhr nsh vs cheaper panels.

Taking the first region in edf published pricing - e7 off peak is c13.56p/kWh, its peak rate c29.14p and tge regional single rate is 23.78p.

So nsh on e7 will use power costing 10p less per kWh than a cheap panel heater.

Use c35% off peak in mix - and e7 at ghose splits on average is cheaper than SR.  An easy target for many with nsh and hw immersion off peak heater fed hot water cylinders.

Not sure what the ev go rates are peak vs off peak ev charge ?

Oversizing an hhr to cope with 5 vs 7 hr charging may well allow you to benefit from ev rates if cheaper than e7.

With air pump tech and a cop of 3, day rate c24p becomes c8p effective 

You need to look, at the options and the costs - now and in future  - so upfront purchase, installation and running costs.

And given now have an EV in mix year round - the total costs of ev / hw year round and space heating in winter.

Scot_39

Moley27272 said:

Robin9 said:

Do your old storage rads have a fan boost with a local socket in addition to the fused spur ?

Are you on a E7 or E10 type of tariff ?

yes they have fan assist, its so old and and inefficient, I don't think it works very well.  I came off economy 10 a few weeks ago. I'm now with Octopus Energy Go tarrif . I was going to changed the fused spur to a 3 pin plug socket

If your heaters have fans do they have 1or 2 spurs ?

The main charge  fused spur may have been if on e10 - and may or may not now be restricted time only.

You would have to know what changes were made - if same meter they may not have changed alcs switching tines if relied on it - if fitted a new smart meter it might not be switching.

So circuits could be dead or live 24/7 depending on what wiring changes were madd in metr cabinet etc..

And that could need an electrician to sort at consumer unit level.

Stubod

Direct electric heating is (the most) expensive form of heating. You would be better off getting at least a couple of modern HHR storage heaters and running them on E7. We are also on electric, and since electric proces went up we manage OK with just running 2 storage heaters, (they are 25+ years old). 

One is located in the hall, the other in the main living room. In the bedroom we use an electric underblanket which we just put on befreo we get into bed, and leave it on for about an hour. In the kitchen we fitted a plinth fan heater that heats up the room quickly as and when we need it. In the evening we do use a multi fuel burner for when the SH stop giving out much heat. 

We are in the process of replacing the main SH with a more modern one we got of a freecycle site.

It is worht noting that modern SH do need a 24hr supply as well as the E7 circuit...

Shrubery

My 35 year old Dimplex storage heaters (working perfectly well and I was always nice and warm) were replaced a few months ago under the free replacement Government scheme. I now have Elnur Gabarron “smart” storage heaters. Only trouble is, the installers don’t appear to have been smart, as the heaters have been wired incorrectly. 

I have an Economy 10 smart meter which gives me 10 hours of cheaper electricity. The storage heater sockets and my hot water system are  connected to a separate fuse box that is programmed to “turn on” at the three selected cheap rate times. Simple. My new storage heaters have two cables, one should be connected to the cheap rate fuse box and the other should be connected to the separate any time fuse box. Problem is, the storage part of the heaters is never activated, the blocks remain cold. During the 10 hours of cheap rate two out of three heaters start blowing out warm air and one does nothing at all. The temperature in my bedroom remains a chilly 16/17 degrees.

 The installers, Warmer Homes/Carbon Savings, are terribly pleasant and have promised to send out an engineer. The “first thing tomorrow morning” phone call didn’t happen. The “he’ll definitely phone you today” didn’t happen. I sit typing this wrapped up in so many layers I can hardly move. I’m 77years old with a chronic illness which gets worse if I get cold. I’m angry, but don’t know where to go next. Has anyone had any success with the Elnur Gabarron heaters? Has anyone had success with Warmer Homes?

Shrubery

I should have added that I absolutely and most definitely have turned the switch on the side of the heaters to the on position!

Scot_39

Firstly you may be better getting this moved to your own thread.  There are users here with Elnur heaters - so having a thread with something like Elnur NSH Not Heating in the title might attract their attention better.  You might want to use the report button to request yours and future posts - split out.

Firstly just to be clear - I don't have Elnurs - but flashed through the manuals for one of their series - the EcombiHHR - when thought about upgrades 3-4 years ago now.

NOTE These may or may not be the ones you have fitted.  So do check first.  For instance they do the old non wifi ECombi, the ECOmbi HHR with Wifi and I guess the non HHR PROSSH series. (So just flicked into the manual for the ProSSH - they also are factory shipped for 00:00 - 07:00 charging - and again only have 2 time slots)

Were you given any documentation for those fitted (to my horror I have read several HA installers were not giving people any information ) ?  

If not please download the correct set from the Elnur site.

And even if not - the exact model - the family - might just be same on some of the features.

Unlike their Dimplex equivalents which operate automatically in dual wired mode - for charging periods - the Elnurs still have to have their programmer time set correctly and their main element charge time settings set to match the off peak timings of your restricted supply.

And come with a default factory setting close to at least one regions nominal E7.  (Might be no bad thing for instance if you might lose E10 - its very much a legacy tariff now - and moved to E7 - or if find holding charge well - you might even want to save - as E7 normally cheaper)

The installation settings are covered in the installation manuals - so you may not have a copy.

To my mind the fitters should have asked what your off peak times were as installed them.  And modified.  If they didn't - that's another potential problem - as you may be using peak rate power for what little heat you do get.

But the Elnurs are capable of using a low powered balance element heater - off of 24/7 live for upto 5 hrs per day.

See page 9 of installation manual

https://elnur.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/15192515-R14-Installation-HHR_UK.pdf

The factory defaults are for one particular take on economy 7 nominal times - but many e7 meters will not be switching at those defaults in any case - on that ECombi HHR model series - set to 00:00-07:00 - which is unlikely to match 3 time split E10 overnight completely. 

I also don't like that they are set to switch by default for daylight savings - but not sure if that is just output not input - as my meter stays GMT - and they allow upto 5 hours on the balancing element.

Do you know what your times are.  In East Midlands mines have been set to replace old EMEB Heatwise RTS meters - so are 00:00-05:00 1pm - 4 pm and 8pm-10pm - but yours even in same region may be different.  And their are some regions were E10 is just one 10 hrs - late evening and overnight - no mid-afternoon boost.

I had a look at the Elnurs a few years ago - well the Ecombi HHRs - but kind of discounted them - as can only program 2 sets of charge times - not the full 3 my regional E10 offers.

The comments re the fans only running at off-peak times is also a little worrying. AS they should be wired to the 24.7 supply - and operate whenever heat demanded.

But I guess that depends on what heating profile yours have been set to.

https://elnur.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/15192517-R6-User-Operating-HHR_UK.pdf

The instructions are a little confusing - I have just skimmed again - and I'm pretty good with obscure manuals you get with lots of kit - that others in family struggle with - some might struggle - but it might be useful for you if you could have a look at the manuals for your heaters if not the above - and check some of the data.

See if you can make sense.

Your thoughts about being badly wired is also a concern - in parallel with the fan timings - and at off peak slots - is strange - as the fans are in fact wired to the 24/7 supply - not the restricted.

And given 2 blocks - you might want to choose which of your 3 on E10 most suits your likely use.

Initial thoughts that I'd probably go overnight and early afternoon for charging - skipping early evening 2 hr charge - on my particualr timings - as they are designed to store heat for e7 from 7am to midnight in many cases they should last through that 8-10pm in my case from an afternoon boost. That might give the shortest periods between main charging - particularly so if your in all day - so using heat in the mornings.

I think you may well need them back if not to check the physical wiring - of the heaters and that the restricted live input from the consumer units is still active (I assume they did switch the supply at the CU back on after finished) but the settings - in particular the charge time settings - which need to match your actual meter restricted supply times.   

It is even stranger that only 2 of the 3 operate.

Scot_39

Oh and until they do respond and do come and fix - and you can afford to get them - go and get 1 if not 2 cheap plug in heaters - or a heated throw.

Little 2kW fan heaters start sub £30 - my local supermarket (ASDA) has 2 different models for £20 - will heat a room so your not freezing all day - and if like me - I can run them off peak mid afternoon and early evening slots - as cheaply as my NSH.

And even if only get 1 - easily moved - LR to say bedroom for a quick blast - before you go to bed.

I use a "full sized" portable - well on wheels - their heavy - oil filled radiator - on it's low 1kW setting (max 2.1kW) (I wouldn't buy the cheap mini ones) - when the weather too variable or borderline - as my old LR NSH even on min input can be too much - and if temps bounce back - left with a hotter than needed room for 1-2 days as bricks cool.

Chrysalis

Scot_39 said:

Oh and until they do respond and do come and fix - and you can afford to get them - go and get 1 if not 2 cheap plug in heaters - or a heated throw.

Little 2kW fan heaters start sub £30 - my local supermarket (ASDA) has 2 different models for £20 - will heat a room so your not freezing all day - and if like me - I can run them off peak mid afternoon and early evening slots - as cheaply as my NSH.

And even if only get 1 - easily moved - LR to say bedroom for a quick blast - before you go to bed.

I use a "full sized" portable - well on wheels - their heavy - oil filled radiator - on it's low 1kW setting (max 2.1kW) (I wouldn't buy the cheap mini ones) - when the weather too variable or borderline - as my old LR NSH even on min input can be too much - and if temps bounce back - left with a hotter than needed room for 1-2 days as bricks cool.

Mine came in handy for a few cold days when my boiler was down, ran it during Agile negative pricing.