DWP chasing me

Danien

Robbie64 said:

From my experience of working in the 1980s for what was then the equivalent of the DWP, when someone was imprisoned for benefit fraud, the amount was written off to ensure a fresh start for the person on release. However, this was for cases prosecuted under Social Security law. I don't know if this applied to cases tried under the Theft Act (these were prosecuted by the police at the time, I don't know what the situation is now or even back in the 1990s) and I don't know if the OP in this thread was prosecuted under Social Security law or under something like the Theft Act.

If the amount that the DWP is chasing is considerable it might be worth taking legal advice if the sums being chased are connected with the reasons why the OP was prosecuted.

So it changed sometime between when you were there and I was there.

OP, a good welfare rights specialist organisation should have old benefits law guides from the era available for this sort of circumstance - we certainly did. A solicitor won't have this available and won't be a benefits specialist, unless you can find the solicitor who dealt with your case, but as I said, not sure they keep documentation from back then.

The DWP should also know the law from back then and have the guides, so it is worth challenging the decision on that basis as I said - put the challenge in immediately. Get advice from a specialist welfare rights organisation.

Robbie64

Danien said:

Robbie64 said:

From my experience of working in the 1980s for what was then the equivalent of the DWP, when someone was imprisoned for benefit fraud, the amount was written off to ensure a fresh start for the person on release. However, this was for cases prosecuted under Social Security law. I don't know if this applied to cases tried under the Theft Act (these were prosecuted by the police at the time, I don't know what the situation is now or even back in the 1990s) and I don't know if the OP in this thread was prosecuted under Social Security law or under something like the Theft Act.

If the amount that the DWP is chasing is considerable it might be worth taking legal advice if the sums being chased are connected with the reasons why the OP was prosecuted.

So it changed sometime between when you were there and I was there.

OP, a good welfare rights specialist organisation should have old benefits law guides from the era available for this sort of circumstance - we certainly did. A solicitor won't have this available and won't be a benefits specialist, unless you can find the solicitor who dealt with your case, but as I said, not sure they keep documentation from back then.

The DWP should also know the law from back then and have the guides, so it is worth challenging the decision on that basis as I said - put the challenge in immediately. Get advice from a specialist welfare rights organisation.

The law might be different to established practice. The guidance re: non-recovery of benefit amounts for someone imprisoned following prosecution under Social Security law (in the 1980s) was in the old DHSS / DSS Fraud Officers Guide. It might not have been enshrined in law and may just have been practice.

The old Fraud Officers Guide has not only long been superseded but was also a restricted publication at the time and wasn't meant to be viewed by anyone outside of the department which means if non-recovery was just part of established practice there may no longer be anything written down, or at least written down and accessible by anyone outside the legal part of the DWP. The most recent Fraud Investigations guide is available to view although parts of the guide are redacted for operational reasons and the guide has also been withdrawn as "out of date" https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fraud-investigations-staff-guide

Danien

Robbie64 said:

Danien said:

Robbie64 said:

From my experience of working in the 1980s for what was then the equivalent of the DWP, when someone was imprisoned for benefit fraud, the amount was written off to ensure a fresh start for the person on release. However, this was for cases prosecuted under Social Security law. I don't know if this applied to cases tried under the Theft Act (these were prosecuted by the police at the time, I don't know what the situation is now or even back in the 1990s) and I don't know if the OP in this thread was prosecuted under Social Security law or under something like the Theft Act.

If the amount that the DWP is chasing is considerable it might be worth taking legal advice if the sums being chased are connected with the reasons why the OP was prosecuted.

So it changed sometime between when you were there and I was there.

OP, a good welfare rights specialist organisation should have old benefits law guides from the era available for this sort of circumstance - we certainly did. A solicitor won't have this available and won't be a benefits specialist, unless you can find the solicitor who dealt with your case, but as I said, not sure they keep documentation from back then.

The DWP should also know the law from back then and have the guides, so it is worth challenging the decision on that basis as I said - put the challenge in immediately. Get advice from a specialist welfare rights organisation.

The law might be different to established practice. The guidance re: non-recovery of benefit amounts for someone imprisoned following prosecution under Social Security law (in the 1980s) was in the old DHSS / DSS Fraud Officers Guide. It might not have been enshrined in law and may just have been practice.

The old Fraud Officers Guide has not only long been superseded but was also a restricted publication at the time and wasn't meant to be viewed by anyone outside of the department which means if non-recovery was just part of established practice there may no longer be anything written down, or at least written down and accessible by anyone outside the legal part of the DWP. The most recent Fraud Investigations guide is available to view although parts of the guide are redacted for operational reasons and the guide has also been withdrawn as "out of date" https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fraud-investigations-staff-guide

If it's just practice and not law then it is very dependent on someone carrying out the practice at the time and writing off the debt (if that practice still applied 28 years ago).

There is also the chance that the solicitor/barrister was quoting old practice and not current practice.

Either way, it is really hard to challenge the recovery based on 'this was accepted practice back then in most cases'. There is little chance the DWP will accept that as an argument to write off now. If it was law 28 years ago then that is an easy argue as benefit law books are available for then in welfare rights organisation libraries. But what was general practice back then has no legal basis to argue if it's not enshrined in law, and most advisers won't even know what was general practice and have no way to prove it.

Also what is 'general practice' and not established law will always have exceptions, and how does someone argue they didn't come under an exception?

Unless there is something written in the legal decision paperwork saying that the debt will be written off as part of the conviction and prison sentence, there is no way to prove this.

HillStreetBlues

I thought when a court was involved that it then up to them do decide the amount of repayment and formed part of the sentence,
OP Did the court impose a repayment?

xxxxxxxx

OP you surely know why you went to prison i.e. it was benefit fraud and which benefit it was and what the dates and the amount of the overpayment were  (at least approximately in years).  

And now you have a letter today, it should say the name of the benefit and the amount and dates. 

It seems reasonable then that you already know if it is for the same overpaid amount that you went to prison for?

Who is the letter from? Is it from DWP Debt Management telling you it is to be recovered?  
Or is it from the DWP benefit office telling you the dates and name of benefit and offering you a Reconsideration and the right of Appeal?

If it is from DWP Debt you need to ask DWP Debt what is the name of the benefit the debt arises from and when was the debt sent to their office for recovery action.   The benefit office at the same time, should have sent you a letter of notification of overpayment.  You will need to phone the benefit line for that benefit and ask about this overpayment, when the Decision was made and to ask for the Written Statement of Reasons.

An unlikely scenario, the overpayment was created 28 years ago and you were sent a letter 28 years ago and it was sent to DWP Debt 28 years ago and DWP Debt is only just now realising you never paid it back... 

(Your solicitor is wrong.)

strawb_shortcake

Is this related to the £1200 tax credit overpayment you posted about in 2018? 

IMASMARTIE22

Robbie64 said:

From my experience of working in the 1980s for what was then the equivalent of the DWP, when someone was imprisoned for benefit fraud, the amount was written off to ensure a fresh start for the person on release. However, this was for cases prosecuted under Social Security law. I don't know if this applied to cases tried under the Theft Act (these were prosecuted by the police at the time, I don't know what the situation is now or even back in the 1990s) and I don't know if the OP in this thread was prosecuted under Social Security law or under something like the Theft Act.

If the amount that the DWP is chasing is considerable it might be worth taking legal advice if the sums being chased are connected with the reasons why the OP was prosecuted.

apologies for late reply, yes i would have been prosecuted at the time via the social security as i remember being interviewed  by the police thanks im still trying to find a solicitor   

Danien

IMASMARTIE22 said:

Robbie64 said:

From my experience of working in the 1980s for what was then the equivalent of the DWP, when someone was imprisoned for benefit fraud, the amount was written off to ensure a fresh start for the person on release. However, this was for cases prosecuted under Social Security law. I don't know if this applied to cases tried under the Theft Act (these were prosecuted by the police at the time, I don't know what the situation is now or even back in the 1990s) and I don't know if the OP in this thread was prosecuted under Social Security law or under something like the Theft Act.

If the amount that the DWP is chasing is considerable it might be worth taking legal advice if the sums being chased are connected with the reasons why the OP was prosecuted.

apologies for late reply, yes i would have been prosecuted at the time via the social security as i remember being interviewed  by the police thanks im still trying to find a solicitor   

You need an experienced benefits specialist at this point, not a general solicitor, but that is your choice. A benefits specialist will tell you if you need to consult a solicitor and will not charge you.

IMASMARTIE22

thanks everyone i think my head is now back sort of working i will try the advise there now put attachment onto my part time job [the joys] 
thanks again i will try update if things change

missile

I am sure you will remember where and when you were convicted. The court officer should be able to provide a copy of the court documents which could clarify whether the debt was cancelled.