Keeping positive after promotions failure

Pixie_Cosmo

I'm in an organisation which uses competancy based assessments for job adverts and interviews. I'm neurodiverse (ADD, properly diagnosed when I was a child), and while I can get interviews, I just can't pass them, let alone get the job.

I recently completely failed an interview for a post I have done for several years on temporary promotion. As far as I know I performed well at the higher grade, and I had good evidence. The interview was online (helpful for feeling anxious) and I was allowed to use notes. This time, I thought I had a good chance! I even allowed myself to hope! But no, still f#$ked it up. As per my last few interviews. I will now be managed by the person who got the job. 

I'm really feeling the definition of stupid is keeping trying the same thing again and again, even though the result seems inevitable. I have done 'all the courses and training'. I'm so fed up and angry of trying and failing that my mental health isn't doing well. I just can't perform well in these types of interview. I do well in ones where you just get asked if you can do the job and can evidence it 'normally'...

How do people keep going? I'm pretty resiliant normally, but this constant failure to get anywhere in my career is very depressing and demotivating. And if anyone neurodiverse has tips how they get through these things I would love to hear them please. I can't remember evidence word for word, and I can't even tell the interviewers about a time when I 'inspired someone to do something they didn't want to do'. So I'm stuck in a rut really :-(

LinLui

I do well in ones where you just get asked if you can do the job and can evidence it 'normally'...

I don't understand what this means really - there are lots of "normal" ways of interviewing. How does the way you have been interviewed vary from what you would like the interview to be like? 

Have you asked for feedback, and what does that say?

The problem is that "neurodiverse" isn't a set menu - everyone is different, so what one person struggling with ADD might experience will be totally different from what others with the same challenges experience. So to really give you any meaningful advise we need to understand more about the issue.

MattMattMattUK

Pixie_Cosmo said:

I'm in an organisation which uses competancy based assessments for job adverts and interviews. I'm neurodiverse (ADD, properly diagnosed when I was a child), and while I can get interviews, I just can't pass them, let alone get the job.

I recently completely failed an interview for a post I have done for several years on temporary promotion. As far as I know I performed well at the higher grade, and I had good evidence. The interview was online (helpful for feeling anxious) and I was allowed to use notes. This time, I thought I had a good chance! I even allowed myself to hope! But no, still f#$ked it up. As per my last few interviews. I will now be managed by the person who got the job. 

I'm really feeling the definition of stupid is keeping trying the same thing again and again, even though the result seems inevitable. I have done 'all the courses and training'. I'm so fed up and angry of trying and failing that my mental health isn't doing well. I just can't perform well in these types of interview. I do well in ones where you just get asked if you can do the job and can evidence it 'normally'...

How do people keep going? I'm pretty resiliant normally, but this constant failure to get anywhere in my career is very depressing and demotivating. And if anyone neurodiverse has tips how they get through these things I would love to hear them please. I can't remember evidence word for word, and I can't even tell the interviewers about a time when I 'inspired someone to do something they didn't want to do'. So I'm stuck in a rut really :-(

A huge part of it is accepting that very few interviews lead to jobs or promotions. It will depend on the organisation but it could easily be less than one in ten are successful. 

In relation to your current employer you could ask HR and/or the interviewer for feedback and say that you are looking to improve so you want to know where needs work. You can also ask them what skills they would see as valuable going forward. 

Finally and perhaps most importantly you might be looking for the wrong kind of promotions. You mention you are neurodiverse. Promotions often, but not always involve moving to a position that requires people management, you might lack people skills, but also it might not the best use of the skills you do have. People management is a skill in it's own right and many employers have now learnt that just because someone is good at one part of their job, that does not automatically mean that they are good at managing a team of other people to do that job. On that basis I would look at both promotions and jobs that involve use of different skills but also perhaps do not involve managing teams of people.

Brie

I really get this.  I'm not ADD or anything like that but I do have some vision issues which meant I really messed up some chances to get jobs. 

I had an "interview" part of which was to demonstrate I could use certain office programmes.  No problem as I'm quite good on computers.  What I hadn't anticipated was that I would be doing this on a laptop with a 14" screen.  My normal screen is 23" and I've changed the resolution to make things bigger on that.  I've also got a special mouse and keyboard and I've got my office stuff programmed with special toolbars etc that make life so much easier for me.  So me trying to see something on a tiddly screen, use the flat bit on a laptop that is there instead of a mouse and type on a cramped reduced keyboard was never going to work.  Big fail.  

Had another interview with the same organisation and they said it would be done remotely so I'd need to set up Teams in order to participate.  No problem.  Got it all set up on my tablet.  Started chatting and they threw in - "you've got to read this scenario and one of our colleagues will now phone you and you'll have to play act being in the role already".  Great - except they phoned our landline instead of the mobile I had beside me so the call didn't get answered as promptly as expected.  OK next part "we'll email you some info and you need to respond back by email making sure you have reformatted everything".  Great, except my tablet didn't have any office programmes loaded on it so I had to forward the email to my OH's desk top without any of the special programming I'm used to and try to work it from there, email back to the tablet, remove traces of my forwarding it twice.....well again disaster.

Third time lucky I thought, another interview in person with practical stuff.  Ensured I asked for a way to NOT use a laptop.  Brought along my special keyboard and mouse.  Well it completely threw them so they had the laptop fixed to a large projector screen 8 feet up, still very difficult to read and well.....again, I failed.

So I thought about what I had learned and applied for a different job in a similar organisation and was able to take some of the questions that I'd been asked and had notes on what I should have answered.  I remembered some of the crucial comments that had been fed back to me and added those into my notes.  I practiced a little speech that as both organisations were charities how they had to depend on volunteers and how volunteers had to be valued as much if not more than paid staff.  Referred to volunteers as unpaid staff and how their motivation was different.  Thought I'd really won them over.  And I failed.  This despite having the person who had told me about the job and had agreed to be referee was also someone on the interview panel.  

But like the first organisation I had applied for more than one role so I rang them up, asked for feedback (again) and asked about the other role I'd applied for.  Determination paid off as I was invited back for another interview.  And got the job.  

So the point is, stick to it, get feedback, write down the obvious questions you'll be asked (there are only so many), prep your notes that answer those questions.  Tell them that you have the notes so that you look prepared and serious about the role.  Have in your notes something about yourself - how diversity makes you a great candidate because XYZ.  Try to smile at the right points.   Be nice on the way in, and nice on the way out.  Make little polite jokes if you can or avoid them if you can't.  Say please and thank you to everyone involved.  And ask for feedback. 

DullGreyGuy

MattMattMattUK said:

Pixie_Cosmo said:

I'm in an organisation which uses competancy based assessments for job adverts and interviews. I'm neurodiverse (ADD, properly diagnosed when I was a child), and while I can get interviews, I just can't pass them, let alone get the job.

I recently completely failed an interview for a post I have done for several years on temporary promotion. As far as I know I performed well at the higher grade, and I had good evidence. The interview was online (helpful for feeling anxious) and I was allowed to use notes. This time, I thought I had a good chance! I even allowed myself to hope! But no, still f#$ked it up. As per my last few interviews. I will now be managed by the person who got the job. 

I'm really feeling the definition of stupid is keeping trying the same thing again and again, even though the result seems inevitable. I have done 'all the courses and training'. I'm so fed up and angry of trying and failing that my mental health isn't doing well. I just can't perform well in these types of interview. I do well in ones where you just get asked if you can do the job and can evidence it 'normally'...

How do people keep going? I'm pretty resiliant normally, but this constant failure to get anywhere in my career is very depressing and demotivating. And if anyone neurodiverse has tips how they get through these things I would love to hear them please. I can't remember evidence word for word, and I can't even tell the interviewers about a time when I 'inspired someone to do something they didn't want to do'. So I'm stuck in a rut really :-(

A huge part of it is accepting that very few interviews lead to jobs or promotions. It will depend on the organisation but it could easily be less than one in ten are successful. 

Appreciate trying to stay positive for the OP however an organisation is doing something very wrong in their candidate selection if they are having to see more than ten candidates per vacancy, 4-5 tends to be a more normal number unless you are looking for the proverbial hens tooth.  It is still that the vast majority get told no at the end of the process.

I'm assuming this was an internal application in which case I would ask for an opportunity to speak to the interviewer to get more feedback, in an ideal world maybe with your current manager at the same time so you can create an action plan to get you to where you need to be though that depends on if they feel its your interviewing skills or something else that is lacking. 

Ultimately interviewing is a skill like anything else. As a contractor I do a lot of interviewing, on both sides of the table and I'm fortunate that I am never short of work however there are others who I rate at least as good as me at doing the job but they get notable gaps in their work as they struggle to get their next job. 

Like any skill the more you practice it the better you will get at it, Do you have friends, family etc that run interviews? Could you ask them to help you out with some mock interviews the next time you go for a role? Some people apply for jobs with no intention of taking them just to get the experience of the interview. If nothing else, if it's an internal role you go for next then someone in your chain of command may be willing to do a short practice interview with you. 

Pixie_Cosmo

Thanks folks, it's more the interviewing skills I think. I have been on the courses, but my ADD and basic introvertness means I struggle with massive anxiety (took me three goes to pass my driving test I was so scared), which means my brain just shuts down. This, coupled with my inability to remember the entire STAR examples, plus deviate from the questions, and not finish the example off properly are my issues/feedback. Written questions I'm great at! My main problem with competancy based assessment is they are verbal memory tests. I couldn't even learn my times tables no matter how many times I recited them. 

I need to learn how to manage the anxiety and not overthink in the interview - I know most people get nervous!

I need to find hints and tricks to remember the answers, or how to answer if the question is differently phrased from what I expected.

I'm actually a good manager and team organiser from the reviews I've had. I don't go for jobs where I don't have the skills to apply. In this case, it was me with several years acting up to that grade in the team, vs someone from outside the team. So it's going to be super awkward...

The manager who interviewed me will provide feedback.

I also need to decide if going for promotion is something I should keep trying for, just because the constant rejection isn't good for my mental health. I also need to get another post, I can't stay in my current team. Sideways moves are easier to get as it's more of a chat.

BrassicWoman

Ask for the questions in advance as a reasonable adjustment. I have worked places that gave questions to everyone in advance; because the interview is an assessment of your job ability, not your ability for perfect recall under pressure.

Pixie_Cosmo

BrassicWoman said:

Ask for the questions in advance as a reasonable adjustment. I have worked places that gave questions to everyone in advance; because the interview is an assessment of your job ability, not your ability for perfect recall under pressure.

That would be amazing and fair to everyone to do that! Thank you for suggesting I do that - certainly worth a go :-) 

Savvy_Sue

BrassicWoman said:

Ask for the questions in advance as a reasonable adjustment. I have worked places that gave questions to everyone in advance; because the interview is an assessment of your job ability, not your ability for perfect recall under pressure.

That's a good suggestion, plus is your employer aware of your neurodiversity? I'm guessing they are, but they may need to be reminded of it whenever you are interviewed, and one reasonable adjustment for you would be for you to be able to bring notes to refer to when answering the questions (which we hope you've already seen). 

It is tricky: I've seen people fail at internal interviews, because they know the panel knows them, and knows they can do the job. But they have to give good answers to the questions we ask!

Pixie_Cosmo

Savvy_Sue said:

BrassicWoman said:

Ask for the questions in advance as a reasonable adjustment. I have worked places that gave questions to everyone in advance; because the interview is an assessment of your job ability, not your ability for perfect recall under pressure.

That's a good suggestion, plus is your employer aware of your neurodiversity? I'm guessing they are, but they may need to be reminded of it whenever you are interviewed, and one reasonable adjustment for you would be for you to be able to bring notes to refer to when answering the questions (which we hope you've already seen). 

It is tricky: I've seen people fail at internal interviews, because they know the panel knows them, and knows they can do the job. But they have to give good answers to the questions we ask!

I think, tbh, I've been wary of declaring it in the past in case people think I won't be competent at my job. Which is nuts, because I am good at my job! My team is fairly neurodiverse and inclusive. Maybe I do need to advocate for myself more. It's obvious I can't 'compete' at interview level, and if I can honestly request the questions in advance as a reasonable adjustment it would be a game changer. Everyone is allowed to use notes now, and why not allow everyone to see questions in advance?  I will ask when I get my feedback if this is an option for the future. Thank you :-)

Savvy_Sue

Pixie_Cosmo said:

Savvy_Sue said:

BrassicWoman said:

Ask for the questions in advance as a reasonable adjustment. I have worked places that gave questions to everyone in advance; because the interview is an assessment of your job ability, not your ability for perfect recall under pressure.

That's a good suggestion, plus is your employer aware of your neurodiversity? I'm guessing they are, but they may need to be reminded of it whenever you are interviewed, and one reasonable adjustment for you would be for you to be able to bring notes to refer to when answering the questions (which we hope you've already seen). 

It is tricky: I've seen people fail at internal interviews, because they know the panel knows them, and knows they can do the job. But they have to give good answers to the questions we ask!

I think, tbh, I've been wary of declaring it in the past in case people think I won't be competent at my job. Which is nuts, because I am good at my job! My team is fairly neurodiverse and inclusive. Maybe I do need to advocate for myself more. It's obvious I can't 'compete' at interview level, and if I can honestly request the questions in advance as a reasonable adjustment it would be a game changer. Everyone is allowed to use notes now, and why not allow everyone to see questions in advance?  I will ask when I get my feedback if this is an option for the future. Thank you :-)

I think you should think about how to present your neurodiversity in its best light before you mention the things you struggle with. So just as an example in a very different area, one of my siblings had a serious hearing loss from birth. Obviously that made some things (like using the phone) very difficult, and they were perhaps fortunate that when they started work, larger companies were strongly encouraged to employ a certain % of staff with disabilities. Now, one obvious advantage - which my sibling would mention at interviews - was that they would be very focussed on their work, not prone to idle chit-chat, and less distracted by conversations going on around them. If their input was needed, colleagues would need to make slightly more effort to include them and to ensure they could hear what was going on, but overall the deafness made them a better worker. Can you see ways to start with the reasons why you're so good at your job linked to your ND, and then move on to the areas where you struggle?