PCN as a visitor of a private car park

zeusxav

Hello! 

I’ve read through quite a few threads but haven’t found one which relates to a visitor parking space in a residential private car park so wondered if anyone would kindly point me in the right direction or be able to advise me please? 

I stayed with a friend 30/9/23 - 2/10/23 and she asked the concierge for a parking space. I was provided with an unnumbered space known as the maintenance bay. (I also stayed on 2 other dates after this) . I used the shutter fob to access the parking area. On the last day there was a pcn on my car. I asked the concierge and they told me to ignore it. Anyhow I have been pursued by VCS and now I’ve got county court papers. 

I appealed to VCS after their first letter on the basis I was given permission to park. However this was denied but the email went into my junk folder. It was only months later I got a letter to say the fee has gone up and a letter before action. By this time I’d missed the deadline to appeal to the IAS.  

There is no signage to the entrance of the shuttered carpark, or along the path I drove to the parking space. I have photograph evidence. I was not provided with a parking permit by the concierge.  Residents are not provided with a valid permit either - they are allocated a numbered bay.

As it turns out the concierge have no authority to offer visitor parking. Plus the members of staff are now denying the allocated me a space as they’re worried they will lose their job 😩

Ive received a letter today stating that EMS legal are no longer representing VCS at court and I can pay a reduced fee of £195 (they’re claiming £370 in court).

Ive never been to court and I’m struggling to fill in the mediation court papers. 

It seems so unfair I’ve ended up with the fine when I was given permission but I’d rather not go to court and pay even more. 

Thanks for reading though! 

Gr1pr

Presumably your defence has been submitted. ?

Are you at the current N180 stage. ?

The newbies sticky thread in announcements by coupon mad, second post explains how to fill it in

I think that by your account of being granted a parking spot by the concierge, it's promissory estoppel in my opinion 

tacpot12

It's risky but might a court decide that you were "on the balance of probabilities" given permission to park?

The staff can't tell the court that they didn't give you permission to park without committing perjury. I think I would ask the concierge if they have signed witness statements saying that they didn't give you permission to park. If they haven't done so already, I would tell them that you are sorry, but if they do sign such a statement you will report them for perjury. The fact that the maintenance bay space was assigned to you via your friend means that she can honestly sign a witness statement saying that you were assigned the bay. You can tell the concierge that she is going to do so. If they have already signed statement, then your friend's statement cancels out their false statements to some degree. The judge might think your friend is lying for you, but they also have to consider that the conceirge might be lying as they are in fear of their jobs.

Regardsless of whether the concierge had any authority to offer you parking, they did and this is what will matter. It's a problem for the landlord and VCS to clear up of the staff aren't trained properly or don't follow the rules. Also, finding replacement staff is not going to be easy, so I doubt anyone will lose their jobs over this. The concierge would have a claim for unfair dismissal if they hadn't been told they couldn't allow visitors to part in the maintenance bay when no maintenance contractor was due. (It's bad practice to allow use of maintainance bays when planned maintenance isn't happening as you never know when emergency maintenance might be needed). 

Coupon-mad

tacpot12 said:

It's risky but might a court decide that you were "on the balance of probabilities" given permission to park?

Regardsless of whether the concierge had any authority to offer you parking, they did and this is what will matter. It's a problem for the landlord and VCS to clear up 

I agree.  I don't think this matters in law:

"As it turns out the concierge have no authority to offer visitor parking."

Remember the Buckingham Palace legal argument beloved of PPCs, everyone?

A contract was offered, made and accepted, regardless of whether the offeror had the ability to perform it.

zeusxav

Gr1pr said:

Presumably your defence has been submitted. ?

Are you at the current N180 stage. ?

The newbies sticky thread in announcements by coupon mad, second post explains how to fill it in

I think that by your account of being granted a parking spot by the concierge, it's promissory estoppel in my opinion 

The first form I filled in was online to moneyclaim.  The second form which came in the post is the directions form asking if I want to go to mediation.

Gr1pr

Then the postal notice is an N180 , hopefully which came from the CNBC in Northampton. ?

If so , follow the N180 form filling instructions in the newbies sticky thread in announcements by coupon mad, second post

Coupon-mad

zeusxav said:

Gr1pr said:

Presumably your defence has been submitted. ?

Are you at the current N180 stage. ?

The newbies sticky thread in announcements by coupon mad, second post explains how to fill it in

I think that by your account of being granted a parking spot by the concierge, it's promissory estoppel in my opinion 

The first form I filled in was online to moneyclaim.  The second form which came in the post is the directions form asking if I want to go to mediation.

And you said NO to Mediation we hope?

Show us your defence, verbatim.

zeusxav

The private land identified as B T Car Park is below a

tower block of residential apartments (not commercial as stated in

the claimants letter to me dated 8 November 2023). I was invited

by my friend, Ms CR who lives within the building to

stay over between 30 September 2023 - 2 October 2023. Protocol

within the building is to contact the concierge and request a

visitor parking space. There are 3 members of the concierge who

are employed at the building, C, T & S.

On 30th September my friend had left for work and left the fob at

reception for me to collect. I spoke with T and he gave me the

fob to access the shuttered underground car park. He gave me

directions to drive to the rear of the building and advised me of

a specific car park space which he had allocated for my stay. I

was not issued a parking permit as this is not common practice

within the building. I stayed several times with my friend until

Christmas utilising the parking amenities as directed by the

concierge and not once was I provided with a parking permit as

requested by the claimant. I was allocated an unnumbered space

known as the maintenance bay. I exited the carpark via the shutter. 

I did not return to my car until Sunday evening, again

entering via the carpark shutter entrance as my friend wanted to

retrieve some items from her car. We noticed the ticket on the

car and C said she would go and speak to concierge as I had

been given permission to park in that space. C was told by

S to ignore it.

Each member of staff have stated they did not issue the ticket.

I would have appealed to the independent body however the refusal

of my response to the online claim went into my junk mail. I was

only aware of the refusal when I received another demanding letter

and the time had expired.

I did write to the claimant again explaining the situation however

I received a reply stating I must show a valid parking permit an

they would not acknowledge any further correspondence disputing he

charge (dated 1 Feb 2024).

I have photographic evidence of the signage on entrance to the car

park - which is in fact blank. Not that it would have been

relevant as I was given permission and directions to park by the

designated employees of the building who have responsibility and

authority to do so.

zeusxav

Coupon-mad said:

zeusxav said:

Gr1pr said:

Presumably your defence has been submitted. ?

Are you at the current N180 stage. ?

The newbies sticky thread in announcements by coupon mad, second post explains how to fill it in

I think that by your account of being granted a parking spot by the concierge, it's promissory estoppel in my opinion 

The first form I filled in was online to moneyclaim.  The second form which came in the post is the directions form asking if I want to go to mediation.

And you said NO to Mediation we hope?

Show us your defence, verbatim.

That was my response to the moneyclaim online.

Coupon-mad

Good. A decent defence!

Come back when you get a hearing date and we'll help you with your WS and evidence (please read the 2nd post of the NEWBIES thread now, to know what happens when).

zeusxav

@tacpot12

The conceirge staff are refusing to have anything to do with it.  I contacted their head office and they said they don't have any affiliation with the car park company.  They are employed by the tenants.  None of them have been approached as I'm assuming they would have mentioned it when I spoke to them this week.

This was the response from the concierge area manager:

"As you are aware I have spoken with XX on this matter, he has no recollection of giving authority to park to yourself in September 2023. The concierge staff at B and P Security are not affiliated with the car park company in any way.I am sorry to hear about your fine but there is nothing more I can do."

My friend has written a statement for me confirming she was allocated a visitor parking space.

I'm unsure if I should pay the reduced fee???