Two Related Meters on a single rate tariff - being charged two standing charges

FLady

I have two related meters and have always been on a single rate tariff and I was with Shell - who only charged me a single standing charge (I did have to quote the Ofgem report "Supplier Compliance with restricted meters" at them once when they tried to suddenly start charging me two standing charges but they fairly quickly agreed and went back to a single standing charge)

 But shell have been taken over by octopus and my first bill from them showed two standing charges. - I emailed them saying I should only have a single standing charge applied - and their first reply was "I have reviewed your account and can confirm that you are on a single rate tariff. Therefore you should only be charged a single standing charge. I will rectify and amend your bill.  wow I was really impressed !!

But since then nothing has happened and the emails I receive now all say variations on "we indeed do not offer one standing charge for your meter set up as you have two meters and within octopus energy we will charge you two standing charges and I would like to advise there are other suppliers which you would need to shop around for that does offer this as Shell energy done it but not ourselves" 
I have quoted the above ofgem report - but they don't comment - just say Octopus will charge two standing charges.

I have put in a formal complaint - but the email response was from the same person who said she has checked twice already and octopus charge two standing charges - but she has agreed to check again. 

assuming no change - do I then ask for a deadlock letter and what do I ask them to put in this? - I would like some reason as to why the OFGEM report is just ignored. and then go to the ombudsman?  or contact the chief executive Greg as they say that is possible on octopus complaint page

mmmmikey

Hi, why do you have 2 meters? This is likely to cause you more and more issues in the future, regardless of the rules, so it would be interesting to understand the background to this. Although it won't necessarily answer your question it might be possible to suggest an alternative way forward and/or the context might help predict the outcome of the complaint and you can then decide whether it's worth pursuing. The ombudsman will make a decision on what the rules are now which may be different to what they were previously.

molerat

There should be no issues, there are no different rules and no alternative way forward.  The simple fact is that those who were on a complex tariff which often came with 2 related meters and 2 MPANs are entitled to go on to a single rate and have one standing charge under The Energy Market Investigation (Restricted Meters) Order 2016, end of discussion. Octopus are clearly in the wrong.  If the complaint goes nowhere just ask for a deadlock letter, no more details needed, and take it to the ombudsman.

mmmmikey

molerat said:

There should be no issues, there are no different rules and no alternative way forward.  The simple fact is that those who were on a complex tariff which often came with 2 related meters and 2 MPANs are entitled to go on to a single rate and have one standing charge under The Energy Market Investigation (Restricted Meters) Order 2016, end of discussion. Octopus are clearly in the wrong.  If the complaint goes nowhere just ask for a deadlock letter, no more details needed, and take it to the ombudsman.

Ah yes, I can see now I missed the point about these being restricted meters so strike (most of) my previous post from the record.

Having said that just because there shouldn't be any issues doesn't mean there won't be as the OP found out with Shell and is finding again with Octopus.

Maybe now is the time to swap the two meters for a single one (as well as seeking a refund for the second standing charge) to avoid having the same issue a third time if the OP decides to change suppliers on the future?

Scot_39

molerat said:

There should be no issues, there are no different rules and no alternative way forward.  The simple fact is that those who were on a complex tariff which often came with 2 related meters and 2 MPANs are entitled to go on to a single rate and have one standing charge under The Energy Market Investigation (Restricted Meters) Order 2016, end of discussion. Octopus are clearly in the wrong.  If the complaint goes nowhere just ask for a deadlock letter, no more details needed, and take it to the ombudsman.

Except the rules do not on the face of it  apply to all dual meter setups - like those on Economy 7 metering - even if two meters.

Could 2 meters for economy 7 be "related" - which is all OP has said -  but not relevent restricted metering infrastructure ?


https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/energy-market-investigation-restricted-meters-order-2016

And also is it still in effect - it was originally time limitted ?

Also I believe Octopus have in past had a habit of reverting at least some customers who have posted here to meter type and not tariff on switching regardless of current tariff - if Shell to Octopus counts as such.

Perhaps there is something of a grey area.

Hopefully they will match Shell or Ombudsman will side with OP.

Since I last paid 2 mpans for my original rts heatwise dual meters ( EOn simplification exercise removed them long before current rts switch off panic / then extensions)  - Ofgem have more than doubled my SC - it's now a much bigger problem if caught by it.

mmmmikey

Hi @FLady - what outcome are you looking for here? 

If this ended up with the two meters being changed for a single meter and the second standing charge refunded (and possibly some kind of compensation for the inconvenience) would that be satisfactory? Or is there a reason for wanting to keep the two meters - e.g. you don't want a smart meter?

There are a number of nuances here. The significance of the question is that the problem is different if you want to keep the two meters and potentially different policies, rules and regulations come into play. Understanding those differences might help you approach the regulator in a way that achieves the outcome you want, or it may be possible to avoid the need to approach the regulator at all.

mmmmikey

Hi @molerat

The regulations you referred to clearly have (or at least had) some relevance but as @Scot_39 points out were originally set to expire on 30th June 2021:

"This Order shall continue to be in force until 30 June 2021, except for Articles
3.1, 3.2 and 4.1 to 4.3 which shall continue to be in force until 31 December
2020, or until such time (before this date) as it is varied or revoked under the
Act."

Do you know (or does anyone else reading this) know if the regulations are still in place or if they've expired or been superceded?

Thanks, Mike

p.s. not really disagreeing with the sense of much of what you're saying in the fairly narrow context of the original post. My questions to the OP are really just trying to establish the broader context. On the face of it there should be a simple and easy solution to the problem - swap the two meters for a smart meter and refund the customer the standing charge. Even if the regulations are no longer in force, given the circumstances of the change (i.e. Octopus buying out Shell accounts) then one way or another Octopus are going to be on the hook for the standing charges. But what happens going forward if the the customer retains the two meters is a different kettle of fish and you get into questions about whether Octopus are able to properly support this kind of legacy metering arrangement, whether they are required to, whether they are allowed to swap the meters for smart meters and so on.

BarelySentientAI

mmmmikey said:

The regulations you referred to clearly have (or at least had) some relevance but as @Scot_39 points out were originally set to expire on 30th June 2021:

"This Order shall continue to be in force until 30 June 2021, except for Articles
3.1, 3.2 and 4.1 to 4.3 which shall continue to be in force until 31 December
2020, or until such time (before this date) as it is varied or revoked under the
Act."

Do you know (or does anyone else reading this) know if the regulations are still in place or if they've expired or been superceded?

It's now in the supply licence with an end date of 30 June 2025.

22G I think.

FLady

thanks for all replies - yes the date has been extended to 30th June 2025 and the document that this is in states that  "Our consideration of extending the licence condition will again be based on the state of the smart meter rollout This should give the sector sufficient policy certainty of our likely action in 2025."  which seems to suggest that they might extend again if the smart meter rollout is delayed.  

I did ask shell last year if I could swop the two meters to a single smart meter - they asked for pictures of the set up and then it all went quiet and then they sold to octopus. There is no reason why that I know of that they cant be combined but I guess it is not quite a standard simple old meter to new smart meter installation.

Have other people with related meters being able to get their energy company to do a simple swop to a single smart meter? - any complications?  I know mobile coverage in our area is very patchy - is that still an issue?
I would love to have a single smart meter without all this hassle !!

BarelySentientAI

FLady said:

Have other people with related meters being able to get their energy company to do a simple swop to a single smart meter? - any complications?  I know mobile coverage in our area is very patchy - is that still an issue?
I would love to have a single smart meter without all this hassle !!

With the right model of smart meter it should be possible - even if it has to be in "traditional mode" because of signal problems.

That's assuming your tariff structure and system configuration isn't something unique and particularly tricky (you've not mentioned what your setup actually is).

Scot_39

Many dual meter systems can be replaced  by a single modern  smart meter  - for dual tariff rates like e7  including many with one set of restricted circuits (typically nsh and hw immersion in all electric homes).

Photos of meters and tail wiring cabinet - serial numbers redacted - as above.

Or meter types and original tariff before going SR ?



But issues around variable seasonal or even forecast specific timing via rts and three rate or three circuit home wiring remain for others.  Tariffs like thtc, comfort plus with weathercall ? etc 


As you seem happy with SR - and dont get the single mpan talk to Octopus about getting the meters upgraded.

That will then give you potential other options to save like their tracker or agile favoured by many who post here if suit your use and appetite.