Meter change

TomCanty

edf has sent me an e -mail telling me that my old electricity meter is nearing the end of its life and that they have a legal duty to change it. The company has, for a long time,  repeatedly been offering (trying hard to get me to accept) the installation of a smart meter which I don't want. Is this a way of getting round the issue or can I demand that they install a meter of the sort I've been using for years. Advice would be appreciated.

BarelySentientAI

Similar to all the other threads with this question:

Yes, your electricity meter could be end of life.

Yes, they have to change it.

Yes, they will fit a smart meter.

No, you cannot have an old meter.

Almost everything that gets listed as a 'problem' with smart meters is either false rumours, misunderstood, based on misinformation, an outright conspiracy theory, overblowing an extremely rare problem into a big event, or multiple of those things.

Tell us what aspect are you worried about and we will tell you which applies.

TomCanty

I'm worried by the "Almost" part of "Almost everything." If I can't do anything to refuse the installation of one of these devices even a discussion about that aspect would be pointless, but thanks for the reply.

Spoonie_Turtle

TomCanty said:

I'm worried by the "Almost" part of "Almost everything." If I can't do anything to refuse the installation of one of these devices even a discussion about that aspect would be pointless, but thanks for the reply.

You could attempt to work with your supplier to find a solution if there truly would be a problem.  Plus if there will be no problem, it's worth having your mind put at rest rather than worrying needlessly.

So, what's your worry about a smart meter?

Scot_39

I like my smart meter IHD - as I have a dual rate tariff - and it warns me of the changes - in my case 3 times a day - but I can well understand some of the more reasoned scepticism and so objections.

And it would seem others recognise the numbers seeking to avoid - the likes of CA or Which - see links below - both have sections on refusing in advice.

Despite the savings others are willing to garner from them - and post regularly here savings in the £100s pa - they do not suit everyone's home energy / heating systems as exist.

The role out of smart meters was effectively penned into UK law under the last New Labour government and EU - it's not new - and it's way behind original planned timescales.   The specs for UK finally registered with our then masters the EC/EU in 2012 - timescales stated

"Mass roll-out is expected start in 2014 and will be completed in 2019"

Here we are 4.5 years later.

Govts, Ofgem, poor technology choices and suppliers - all carry some of the blame.

The more recent meter end of life policy - which Ofgem recommends suppliers to fit smart metering in vast majority if not all of those cases - dropped some sentences from it's previous statements re user's objection.

But the legal position - I've lost track of - there was one strong opponent who used to post regularly here - who was convinced even after that End of Life change - their was no legal compulsion.

Quick google of UK consumer sites

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/energy/energy-supply/your-energy-meter/getting-a-smart-meter-installed/

Has a whole section on refusal - but also states "you might not be able to refuse a smart meter"

Similarly

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/do-i-have-to-accept-a-smart-meter-aLLKl9O63dbM#your-rights-around-the-smart-meter-installation-process

Article dated 24 Apr 2024

still mentions the right to refuse - and the "dumb mode" no comms compromise.

But other countries have or are now mandating the meters - one major EU state already charging those not accepting smart and announced a further annual price increase already - at least one other already announced plans to introduce such a charge.

So if UK follows - those seeking to refuse - are not only not likely to benefit from savings - but pay a penalty.  

But then others choose to pay by SC to avoid DD - and the savings that come with that.  So I see no reason why smart objectors shouldn't be allowed to continue to pay for their choices.

Excluding perhaps those who self generate and export - like the c1.3m with solar - that creates - certainly historically - both potential local and national network issues. 

BarelySentientAI

Scot_39 said:

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/energy/energy-supply/your-energy-meter/getting-a-smart-meter-installed/

Has a whole section on refusal

Is still a bit wishy washy - you may have to accept if no other option - not must but may - or is that reading too much into it.

Reading way too much into it.

The legal position is, as set out in the electricity act and supply licences, a supplier only needs to provide electricity through a certified meter, and the supplier chooses both the meter and its position.  If the customer refuses this, the supplier is allowed to refuse to begin to supply or disconnect the existing.  The supplier may require the replacement the meter at any time to comply with legislation and the same provisions apply. 

TomCanty said:

I'm worried by the "Almost" part of "Almost everything." If I can't do anything to refuse the installation of one of these devices even a discussion about that aspect would be pointless, but thanks for the reply.

Put it this way then.  There is about the same rate of actual legitimate problems with smart meters as there is with older meters, although this is starting to change as end-of-life effects are seen more frequently in the older models.

Similarly, almost all people crossing the street don't get knocked over, almost all aircraft don't crash, and almost all people don't win the lottery.

So - is there an actual thing that you are worried about that we can help you understand if it is actually a problem, or is it just because nothing is 100% perfect?

TomCanty

"Put it this way then.  There is about the same rate of actual legitimate problems with smart meters as there is with older meters, "

Well if the older models have about the same rate of problems as the smart meters why change them if the claim is that the new ones are almost perfect ? I'm perfectly happy with my old one which seems to be still working perfectly.

Since posting I read the small print at the bottom of the edf e-mail which contained these two paragraphs:

"^In line with current government regulation, we'll replace all old meters with a SMETS2 compliant smart meter. If you don't want a smart meter, we can install your new meter without activating the smart meter functionality, meaning that it'll only operate in the same way as your current meter."

"During installation we may identify that a smart meter isn't compatible with the current metering set up at your property. If this is the case, we’ll reinstall your existing meter and get in touch when we’re able to offer you a suitable smart meter."

OK, I understand that if I decline the smart meter function the new installation can be operated like the old meter but I'm not so sure about the second paragraph I quoted. If an old meter is at the end of its life and about to give up the ghost how comes it can be resuscitated if it transpires that a suitable replacement isn't available ? As this seems to be an option for all these meters it must indicate that there's plenty of life in all these old dogs. I know that I'm susceptible to conspiracy theories but if they're fixing things that aren't broken I'm inclined to suspect that someone, somewhere is getting a lot more than their energy bills paid for by all this activity.

Do please help a poor, stick-in-the-mud old man understand, BarelySentientA1 but see if you can do it in a less patronizing way.

Scot_39

There is about the same rate of actual legitimate problems with smart meters as there is with older meters, although this is starting to change as end-of-life effects are seen more frequently in the older models.

Is there a breakdown of the reported 4m in c 33m failures by type (e.g. no IHD, no IHD comms, no gas comms to hub, no hub to dcc, inaccurate reading, no reading etc ) - over 1 in 10 - and the equivalents where exist for old meter designs.

Because I can never ever remember news articles re the failure of literally millions of traditional meters.

 

Given the way they are marketed to us - can not see why many consumers wouldn't reasonably interpret any of the above "smart" reasons as a "legitimate problem" with their experience with smart technology as "sold" to them (e.g. by likes of the smart meter "Einstein" advert)

BarelySentientAI

TomCanty said:

Well if the older models have about the same rate of problems as the smart meters why change them if the claim is that the new ones are almost perfect ? I'm perfectly happy with my old one which seems to be still working perfectly.

Because the legislation says you have to have a certified meter.  Old meters are running out of certification, and the government has chosen not to recertify them.

TomCanty said:

If an old meter is at the end of its life and about to give up the ghost how comes it can be resuscitated if it transpires that a suitable replacement isn't available ?

Because they have an exemption to use an existing uncertified meter (or nearly uncertified meter) if it is technically impossible to fit a new one.  The exemption does not apply if someone simply says "no thanks."

TomCanty said:

I know that I'm susceptible to conspiracy theories but if they're fixing things that aren't broken I'm inclined to suspect that someone, somewhere is getting a lot more than their energy bills paid for by all this activity.

Nonsense - if you're intending to claim some sort of nefarious inside dealing.  Yes, someone has been given a contract to supply and operate smart meters, but overall they actually save the industry money.  As prices are capped based on how much industry has to spend, this then reduces the price cap and reduces bills.

TomCanty said:

Do please help a poor, stick-in-the-mud old man understand, BarelySentientA1 but see if you can do it in a less patronizing way.

Well you still haven't actually told us what the problem you are worried about is.  All you've said so far is "don't want one".

BarelySentientAI

Scot_39 said:

There is about the same rate of actual legitimate problems with smart meters as there is with older meters, although this is starting to change as end-of-life effects are seen more frequently in the older models.

Is there a breakdown of the reported 4m in c 33m failures by type (e.g. no IHD, no IHD comms, no gas comms to hub, no hub to dcc, inaccurate reading, no reading etc ) - over 1 in 10 - and the equivalents where exist for old meter designs.

Given the way they are marketed to us - can not see why many consumers wouldn't reasonably interpret any of the above "smart" reasons as a "legitimate problem" with their experience with smart technology as "sold" to them (e.g. by likes of the smart meter "Einstein" advert)

No breakdown, because nobody can actually work out where that number came from other than a random soundbite.  If there were actually millions of inaccurate meters - which would be a legitimate problem with their basic, legislated function - then they would have been very clear about that because it would have made a better story.

I think many of the people who are refusing would see "no comms" as a good thing actually.  Obviously, no comparison can be made for lack of comms on manual meters.

For old meters - last bulk test results I have to hand was of about 2350 meters where the customers claimed they were faulty.  2200 were not, about 60 were badly installed, 70 had been tampered with or had faulty displays (strange, but both of those causes go into the 'other' category), and about 75 were outside the allowed accuracy range (but it doesn't record whether they were fast or slow).  

The headline statistic for that survey was 7-8% "faulty" - interesting how that compares to the smart meter story which includes many more possible types of fault (IHDs, comms etc).

Scot_39 said:

Because I can never ever remember news articles re the failure of literally millions of traditional meters.

Because that doesn't generate clicks.  This article, for example:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/mailplus/article-13315187/How-millions-overcharged-smart-meters.html

Is all about how there is a tolerance in accuracy, so claims that smart meter users are (then changes to 'could') be overcharged.  They forget to mention, until the very end, that the same accuracy standards apply to old meters too.

Scot_39

It wasnt a personal attack - I have posted the headline rates - in past which iirc came from a gov uk roll out update report not the media - and been shot down in flames by others for using them - listing one or more of the above reasons.

I tend to not listen to soundbites - or trust headlines - Govt, opposition or media alike.

Just thought as you have given interesting links well worth a read in past posts - you might have more insight here too.

On any "spinable" topic article I'll try to read multiple viewpoints - like say same event coverage in Guardian vs Telegraph - and try to filter out obvious spin from both.