Reverse Opening Direction of Door: WAS: Folding Fire Door

RHemmings

Is it possible to get a fire door that is a folding door? I've googled but haven't (yet?) found one. This would be for a kitchen which doesn't currently have a fire door, but where a normal door would be inconvenient. (Which I guess is why the previous one was removed by a previous owner.) 

EDIT: Oh, and despite me searching before, I didn't find this page saying that bi-fold doors cannot be fire doors. 

https://www.aspire-doors.co.uk/internal-doors/internal-bi-fold-doors/advice/internal-bifold-door-faqs#:~:text=Bifold doors cannot be fire,in between each door panel.

Back to the drawing board. 

EDIT: If I have a door jam where the door (now absent) previously opened in one direction, then how difficult is it to change the direction the door opens.

If there is a kitchen fire door, does the door have to open into the kitchen, or could the direction be swapped to open outwards into a hallway? I don't mean physically, but regulations. 

Kiran

Hanging a door *opposite hand is not difficult or expensive. What you would need to check is if the frame you are hanging on is a fire door lining or a standard door lining. If you're unable to determine it would be better to but a new fire rated lining just to err on the side of caution. In a commercial building the fire doors should open in the direction of travel to the point of exit. I don't believe this will apply in a domestic property.

It sounds like you might be carrying out some work which is being signed off by Building Control? If so, ask your BCO to confirm as they can take a view on certain items

RHemmings

Kiran said:

Hanging a door *opposite hand is not difficult or expensive. What you would need to check is if the frame you are hanging on is a fire door lining or a standard door lining. If you're unable to determine it would be better to but a new fire rated lining just to err on the side of caution. In a commercial building the fire doors should open in the direction of travel to the point of exit. I don't believe this will apply in a domestic property.

It sounds like you might be carrying out some work which is being signed off by Building Control? If so, ask your BCO to confirm as they can take a view on certain items

Thanks. Looking here: https://www.safelincs.co.uk/custom-30-and-60-minute-fire-doors-fd30-fd60/  I see that it would cost another £120 to provide the door frame. And, presumably, more labour to install it. 

Thanks for the pointer about Building Control. I'll find out how to contact a BCO. ... OK, very short initial email sent to BCO. 

EDIT: I need Building Control approval if I am removing or replacing an internal fire doors. In this case I am adding one. I guessing that there was no BCO approval when the door was removed. https://www.labc.co.uk/news/replacing-internal-doors-house

Kiran

If you are fitting a fire door and it needs building control sign off then you will need documentation to certify what is being fitted. It is easier to certify a door set than a fire door fitted to an existing frame unless you know that the existing frame is fire rated. Your local Howdens (or similar) will door fire rated linings at a reasonable price 

RHemmings

Kiran said:

If you are fitting a fire door and it needs building control sign off then you will need documentation to certify what is being fitted. It is easier to certify a door set than a fire door fitted to an existing frame unless you know that the existing frame is fire rated. Your local Howdens (or similar) will door fire rated linings at a reasonable price 

Thanks. I have no idea how to find if the internal frame is fire rated or not. I would guess that bringing in a professional to check this out would likely cost more than the frame. And, if I replaced the frame, that would make it easier to reverse the opening direction of the door. The door frame is old, and repainted. There aren't any identifying labels or anything I can see for a quick win. 

Kiran

There are pretty strict tolerances on fire doors and frames. The chances of a new door fitting into an old frame without alteration are slim. If the intumescent strips are in the door this requires more alteration (removing and refitting)  On a new frame the strips can go in the frame rather than the door and are less prone to wear and tear  

tacpot12

The fire rating of a door frame is dependent on the density of the wood. The minimum required density is 650kg/m3.

Most doorframes will be a softwood that is not dense enough. 

I had the same problem of an existing entrance door and frame to a flat in a block where the council wanted all the doors to be upgraded to be a firedoor. They offered the leaseholders the option to do the work themselves or have the council do it. I had a small peice of oak left over from a previous DIY project. The density of oak is between 593-897 kg/m3. From my project, I knew that it was a very tough peice of oak, so was happy that my sample would be around 650kg/m3 in density. If you or a professional wanted to follow my method, you could obtain a small sample of cherry wood, whose normal density is 689-897kg/m3, and thus exceeds the requirement. 

I setup a simple test rig where hammer was suspended such that it could be released from a known/repeatable height and would hit a narrow nail punch held against the door frame, and then against the samples. I hit the nail punch into the door frame 8 times and repeated the same test with the sample wood of known density. I then measured the depth of the depressions made. This is a test of hardness not density, but it is a reasonable way to determine if you have a hardwood or a software door frame. Mine turned out to be softwood, so I let the council take the work on. They just fitted a firedoor and left the softwood frame in place! As the flat was on the ground floor, and every window is an exit window I was not concerned about the slightly less protection offered by the frame. 

BarelySentientAI

tacpot12 said:

As the flat was on the ground floor, and every window is an exit window I was not concerned about the slightly less protection offered by the frame. 

Your insurer might be less blasé.  And the council's insurer even less so.

Martin_the_Unjust

I’m sure someone will correct me if I am wrong but I believe that the only requirement for fire doors in domestic flats is for the entrance door. 

I have never heard of building control requiring one for any inside door within a flat.

BarelySentientAI

Martin_the_Unjust said:

I’m sure someone will correct me if I am wrong but I believe that the only requirement for fire doors in domestic flats is for the entrance door. 

I have never heard of building control requiring one for any inside door within a flat.

Until recently, yes.  But now flats located on floors 4.5m above ground level should have a fire rated door fitted between all habitable rooms as well as the front door.

Also any door between habitable areas and a garage, or every door off a stairwell on a 3-storey+ property, but those are usually houses not flats.

RHemmings

Building Control have confirmed that as long as I'm just altering an existing opening, that I don't need to involve them. 

There is a Howdens very close to my house, but it says trade only. I guess that doors will also be available from B&Q and Selco's Builders Warehouse. As well as online.