Worried About Quality of ASHP Installation

OldBodger

We have been considering ASHP for some time and approached a trusted local company we had used several times over the last 20 years for triple glazing and other fittings around our 3 bed semi.

They told us they did ASHP systems, though it turned out they actually have an agreement with a separate company that do the job.

We got quoted for a Panasonic 7kW "system" with 8 radiators and a cylinder.

We had two independent surveyor visits and discussed and agreed the fitting with him. The fitting company took just a single day to fit the system (we'd been told it would be 2 days but they said they didn't want to drive 'so far' again so got it done in a day) and left without anyone having told us anything much about what we had got - other than the Panasomic ASHP - and had only very quickly showed us the remote control (and not properly). They left us with a pile of manuals and a semi-soaked guide for the Panasonic system.

After reading all the guides I've found that only the ASHP is Panasonic. The radiators are Ultraheat, the cylinder is UniCyl and the remote control is a Salus IT555.

Does it matter that the system is a seeming hotchpotch of different makes of kit? Have they used the cheapest separate bits they could find, but charged us for a Panasonic Aquarea system?

The full cost was £13,100 - but we did get the BUS £7.5k grant.

They also sprung some spur of the moment decisions on us, which we later regretted - we have accepted there is nothing we can do about those - the pre-agreed siting of the cylinder and the exact fitting position of a large radiator. They refused to change the radiator position afterwards, even though we were prepared to pay them to do so.

The paperwork they have left us is useless - it's all for the Aquarea system and we obviously don't have that. They left a thick manual for the remote control - but it's not for the one they gave us. All this makes me worry we've been had. Problem is, I have no idea what I can do about it - although always polite, they have already shown they are unwilling to be accommodating now the work is done.

OldBodger

*Salus IT500 is the RC - can't seem to be edit my post

Reed_Richards

OldBodger said:

After reading all the guides I've found that only the ASHP is Panasonic. The radiators are Ultraheat, the cylinder is UniCyl and the remote control is a Salus IT555.

Does it matter that the system is a seeming hotchpotch of different makes of kit? 

No that's perfectly normal; Panasonic don't make radiators or cylinders.  That's true of every other ASHP manufacturer I can think of.  Grant do sell their own brand of radiators - but their heat pumps are bought-in and rebadged so they don't actually make those.  I had some Ultraheat radiators fitted with my heat pump and they are good radiators. Panasonic probably do make a dedicated controller but it's quite common to have a third party controller installed.

OldBodger said:

The paperwork they have left us is useless - it's all for the Aquarea system and we obviously don't have that. They left a thick manual for the remote control - but it's not for the one they gave us. 

If you have a Panasonic Aquarea ASHP then you have a Panasonic Aquarea system, albeit with a third party controller ("remote control").  You do need a manual for that but I would be surprised if you could not find one online.

Clearly you had some disagreements with your installers and that has left you distrustful.  You may or may not be right to be worried but you are worrying needlessly about some things.    
  

MP1995

Why did you chose an installer so far away from you?

That has to be one thing no one should do as it's easy to ignore you if you can't knock in their door etc.

OldBodger

Thanks for the response.

We didn't choose one so far away - the local one we went to is only 30 miles away in the nearest city - there aren't any really decent ones locally, plus plumbers and the like are very difficult to get to even come to the house. We had two radiators not working all winter and couldn't get anyone to even respond to our calls, let alone actually come and look at them.

The company that our 'local' one have connections with are from further away - but although the fitters had been complaining continually about how far they had to come, when we asked them it turned out to be only an hour - which to us at least, is nothing. It's the excuse they were using, though.

Regarding the Panasonic system, the guide they left actually shows 3 different types of radiator (TRV, underfloor or fan coil) and gives advice on using them - we don't have any of those fitted and the ones we have are with a simple 1 to 5 heat setting on them. I'll have to do some online research to find the best way to set everything up - when they left the radiators were all giving off heat so the first thing I did was put the control down to 5°.

If all is okay, that's great though. Although the weather is no good for testing the radiators, we are well impressed with the hot water system, which is far better than what we had. We also have the involvement of MCS, EPVS and the installation insurance to give us a good legal basis if any problems arise with the company - though I've read some stories on this forum that give me doubts about their ethics.

BarelySentientAI

OldBodger said:

Regarding the Panasonic system, the guide they left actually shows 3 different types of radiator (TRV, underfloor or fan coil) and gives advice on using them - we don't have any of those fitted and the ones we have are with a simple 1 to 5 heat setting on them. 

So TRVs then?

tacpot12

I'm confused about what you are aiming to achieve. Do you want someone to explain how to operate your system? Do you want someone to audit it to ensure that it has been set-up correctly? Do you want to sue the installers?

My recommendation would be to engage a Heatgeek to audit the system, show you how to use it, and write a report if they feel that any aspect of the installation is fundamentally wrong to the point where a reasonable level of skill wasn't employed by the contractor. You should also ask them to recommend improvements to the system and give an indicative cost for these improvements. 

You can use the link below to find a HeatGeek: 
Find a Heat Geek - HeatGeek

The cylinder make you mentioned is a good quality one, but it includes a buffer tank, which may not be necessary in your installation and might reduce efficiency. It is important that heat pumps are setup for maximum effciency because of the cost of electricity. A poorly configured heat pump can cost a lot to run, and it better to find out that you have a problem BEFORE you have a massive bill from your energy supplier. 

 

Reed_Richards

A TRV is an ordinary radiator fitted with a Thermostatic Radiator Valve.  TRVs are now mandatory on any new installation.  Because the exact temperature achieved by a TRV may vary a bit, you set a number rather than a temperature.  5 is the hottest and 1 the coldest ordinary setting but there may also be a 0 (off) and a * setting.  This website offers a full explanation of the numbers: https://www.traderadiators.com/blog/thermostatic-radiator-valve-numbers

OldBodger

BarelySentientAI said:

OldBodger said:

Regarding the Panasonic system, the guide they left actually shows 3 different types of radiator (TRV, underfloor or fan coil) and gives advice on using them - we don't have any of those fitted and the ones we have are with a simple 1 to 5 heat setting on them. 

So TRVs then?

I don't know - cos no-one told me! Our old radiators had 1-5 control steps on them, but they were definitely not TRVs! That's the biggest issue here - we expected a full explanation of what we had and what we should do and we got zip. "Here's the manuals and here's the controller - you press these two buttons to adjust the temperature" is the complete info we were given.

Turns out the controller in the manuals, which I thought was the wrong one, was in fact the controller fitted on the Panasonic ASHP unit itself, outside - now why didn't they tell us that? I had to ask on the phone and though they were very polite, I could hear the tone of the installer in the background speaking to the guy on the phone and it was less than confidence inspiring, as though I was just a pain, when all I want to know is what they should have told us - especially when they are taking £13,600 for the job.

Thanks for the link, anyway, Reed. I found a couple of websites with helpful info on operating ASHP systems, so I will educate myself and try and get it running efficiently.

Jemma01

tacpot12 said:

I'm confused about what you are aiming to achieve. Do you want someone to explain how to operate your system? Do you want someone to audit it to ensure that it has been set-up correctly? Do you want to sue the installers?

My recommendation would be to engage a Heatgeek to audit the system, show you how to use it, and write a report if they feel that any aspect of the installation is fundamentally wrong to the point where a reasonable level of skill wasn't employed by the contractor. You should also ask them to recommend improvements to the system and give an indicative cost for these improvements. 

You can use the link below to find a HeatGeek: 
Find a Heat Geek - HeatGeek

The cylinder make you mentioned is a good quality one, but it includes a buffer tank, which may not be necessary in your installation and might reduce efficiency. It is important that heat pumps are setup for maximum effciency because of the cost of electricity. A poorly configured heat pump can cost a lot to run, and it better to find out that you have a problem BEFORE you have a massive bill from your energy supplier. 

 

I'm not the OP, but I'm not sure heat geek will do that?

I reached out to them via email (hi@heatgeek.com) and asked

"I live in ********, and looking at a house purchase that has a heat pump. I'm wondering if you do surveys (not service) to tell me the state of it, calculate efficiency, age, size etc? "

they said

"Unfortunately, we do not have a consultation service. We are unable to answer technical questions or offer advice on heating systems, products or installations that we are not directly working on via email or over the phone.

If you would like to start your upgrade journey with us, please begin by visiting "Heat Geek Upgrades" and enter your postcode. This will provide you with a topline estimate." 

Jemma01

tacpot12 said:

I'm confused about what you are aiming to achieve. Do you want someone to explain how to operate your system? Do you want someone to audit it to ensure that it has been set-up correctly? Do you want to sue the installers?

My recommendation would be to engage a Heatgeek to audit the system, show you how to use it, and write a report if they feel that any aspect of the installation is fundamentally wrong to the point where a reasonable level of skill wasn't employed by the contractor. You should also ask them to recommend improvements to the system and give an indicative cost for these improvements. 

You can use the link below to find a HeatGeek: 
Find a Heat Geek - HeatGeek

The cylinder make you mentioned is a good quality one, but it includes a buffer tank, which may not be necessary in your installation and might reduce efficiency. It is important that heat pumps are setup for maximum effciency because of the cost of electricity. A poorly configured heat pump can cost a lot to run, and it better to find out that you have a problem BEFORE you have a massive bill from your energy supplier. 

 

I'm not the OP, but I'm not sure heat geek will do that?

I reached out to them via email (hi@heatgeek.com) and asked

"I live in ********, and looking at a house purchase that has a heat pump. I'm wondering if you do surveys (not service) to tell me the state of it, calculate efficiency, age, size etc? "

they said

"Unfortunately, we do not have a consultation service. We are unable to answer technical questions or offer advice on heating systems, products or installations that we are not directly working on via email or over the phone.

If you would like to start your upgrade journey with us, please begin by visiting "Heat Geek Upgrades" and enter your postcode. This will provide you with a topline estimate." 

Since I'm clearly not looking for an upgrade, sounds like their service doesn't cover audit/survey.