Creocote on fence not absorbing

BarelySentientAI

henry24 said:

BarelySentientAI said:

henry24 said:

Posters including one on this thread keep saying that creosote will kill users and that's why it was banned, how many people have died from using it

It's a carcinogen.

How do you know how many extra cancers have been caused by any individual product?

So it's possible that nobody has died from using creosote and it's been banned for no reason 

In the same way as it's possible that nobody has died from glyphosate, DDT, side effects of mustard gas or eating red meat with added nitrates.  All of which have the same IARC Class 2A rating.

It's a statistical relationship - people who had exposure to creosote were more likely to get certain cancers.  I wouldn't say that's a ban for no reason.

Albermarle

henry24 said:

BarelySentientAI said:

henry24 said:

Posters including one on this thread keep saying that creosote will kill users and that's why it was banned, how many people have died from using it

It's a carcinogen.

How do you know how many extra cancers have been caused by any individual product?

So it's possible that nobody has died from using creosote and it's been banned for no reason 

Having been in the chemical industry, there are numerous chemicals that have been banned in a similar way.
Normally there are indications from lab tests on animals that it is potentially a carcinogen. Plus statistical studies on people who work with the chemical. However there is always a big battle between the manufacturers and authorities over the evidence.
In the end the authorities ( EU mainly) use the 'precautionary principal' , or in English 'Safety First' 

BarelySentientAI

Albermarle said:

henry24 said:

BarelySentientAI said:

henry24 said:

Posters including one on this thread keep saying that creosote will kill users and that's why it was banned, how many people have died from using it

It's a carcinogen.

How do you know how many extra cancers have been caused by any individual product?

So it's possible that nobody has died from using creosote and it's been banned for no reason 

Having been in the chemical industry, there are numerous chemicals that have been banned in a similar way.
Normally there are indications from lab tests on animals that it is potentially a carcinogen. Plus statistical studies on people who work with the chemical. However there is always a big battle between the manufacturers and authorities over the evidence.
In the end the authorities ( EU mainly) use the 'precautionary principal' , or in English 'Safety First' 

This one is even labelled as probably a carcinogen (2A) rather than potentially (2B).

Group 2A: "The agent (mixture) is probably carcinogenic to humans . The exposure circumstance entails exposures that are probably carcinogenic to humans."

"This category is used when there is limited evidence of carcinogenicity in humans and sufficient evidence of carcinogenicity in experimental animals. In some cases, an agent (mixture) may be classified in this category when there is inadequate evidence of carcinogenicity in humans and sufficient evidence of carcinogenicity in experimental animals and strong evidence that the carcinogenesis is mediated by a mechanism that also operates in humans. Exceptionally, an agent, mixture or exposure circumstance may be classified in this category solely on the basis of limited evidence of carcinogenicity in humans."

Examples include diesel engine exhaust, Formaldehyde and PCBs.

B0bbyEwing

Murmansk said:

I'm not sure whether when you say creocote you mean creosote or some other substance but I thought creosote was no longer available. Anyway, if it's been painted with some high tech modern fence treatment you might find that subsequent treatments will tend not to sink in too well because the previous treatment might be a bit like a Goretex jacket - designed to let the wood breathe but keep liquid out.

Someone may have covered this but I haven't read it so...

CreoSote is still available. To my knowledge it's only 'supposed' to be sold to specific people. Professional use perhaps.

But (for example) I work for someone who cares about nothing but money & if Joe Bloggs off the street wants to buy it then my employer will sell it.

I remember someone telling a customer once that they couldn't sell it to them because of XYZ & my employer went absolutely bonkers at this person because they'd missed out on a sale.

henry24

Why can a so called professional still use it but not a householder both are using it on a fence to protect it

ThisIsWeird

Presumably because a pro will follow all the application guidelines...
I guess it's a similar situation to glyphosate; a test case (in the US?) found that it was the likely cause of a pro gardener's cancer*. Tests, or an assessment of the ingredients, determined that the product was a likely carcinogen, and it (I understand) has been subsequently banned for sale to the public. But, pro's can still buy it. As, I understand, pretty much anyone else by simply calling themselves a pro.

* I read about this case at the time of the 'ban'. From what I recall, this pro gardener would regularly come home from work with his trousers legs soaked in the stuff.

You could argue that some of these bans are overkill, and you may be right, but I'm sure we can all agree that a steady move away from products which are known carcinogens, however 'mild', is a 'good thing'.
I have a wooden fence down the side of our house with the posts embedded in the ground, and the pave slab path cemented up tight to it. The bottoms of the boards are in contact with the ground, and are permanently damp in wet weather. It was like this when we moved in over 20 years ago. I have never treated It. It is still perfect.
I have replaced the timber fence I put in myself along the garden bottom for the third time.

I still use glyphosate - a 5 litre can I bought a few years ago from eBay. I can't recall if the ad said you had to be a 'pro', but - regardless -  it must have been around the time of the 'ban', and I knew the product's status. Nevertheless, I also knew that the product itself is one of the safest weedkillers in the respect that it breaks down to harmless components after short contact with the ground. With obvious care - windless days, a gentle, coarse spray, and no-one being  allowed anywhere near the treated areas, I have zero concerns about using it.
Although I'd love to have the effectiveness of the real Creosote, I'd have concerns about it leaching into the water table, remote or not, so not sure I would use it, even if available.

BarelySentientAI

henry24 said:

Why can a so called professional still use it but not a householder both are using it on a fence to protect it

How many homeowners use appropriate PPE, respirator, dosage recording....

Doctors can prescribe chemicals (drugs) that you aren't allowed to buy by yourself, even though it would do the same thing if you used it.  Seems pretty sensible to me.

Why are you so insistent that cancer causing chemicals are freely sold?  Would you also like to go back to widespread asbestos use?

Albermarle

I still use glyphosate - a 5 litre can I bought a few years ago from eBay. I can't recall if the ad said you had to be a 'pro', but - regardless -  it must have been around the time of the 'ban', and I knew the product's status.

It is not banned, you can buy it on Amazon and at Homebase.

Roundup Total Ready To Use Pump N Go Weedkiller Refill - 5L | Homebase

Roundup Ultra, Tough Weedkiller, Concentrate Liquid, 500 ml : Amazon.co.uk: Garden