Purchase about to fall through due to misrepresentation

Albermarle

 without doors

So if there is a fire in the house it ( and smoke ) it will be straight up those stairs and into the bedroom.
At least you have a door on yours.

AJM1984

A twist in the tale....

The vendor is insisting that there are building regs while still pursuing regularisation. However, nobody can seem to figure out what they cover. Please bear in mind I don't fully understand these things but I'll try to put the information across as I have heard and read. 

There IS a certificate attached to the property. In the section where it's supposed to detail the work (at least to some understanding) it just says "New dwelling, house" or something to that effect. It's also signed off by an electrical engineer from a company which has long since gone into liquidation. This, as far as we can tell, can surely only apply to the full rewire of the house which was done at the same time as the full renovation and loft conversion. There is a full electrical certificate too as a separate document. Both our solicitors and lender can only assume the building certificate is electrical based. 

AJM1984

Albermarle said:

 without doors

So if there is a fire in the house it ( and smoke ) it will be straight up those stairs and into the bedroom.
At least you have a door on yours.

A very valid point. Interestingly, I absolutely remember the vendor telling us that all the doors were new in the property and were all "fire doors" but I didn't register that at the time as it was just one of many viewings that week.

ThisIsWeird

AJM1984 said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Hi AJM.

"It's a loft conversion. Every house for sale recently on the same road has one but is marketed as 2 bedroom by other EA. Around the valuation mark we have received from our lender."

Can you confirm - are you saying that the other houses in this street, those with similar (non-conforming) loft conversions, are correctly being marketed as '2-bed', but still have listing values of around £135-140k? Or, are these 'correctly-labelled' houses significantly lower in value?

There have been 4 other houses on the road, within the last month or so, each one with the same building specifications; maybe slightly different garden size or parking. Listed as 2 bed with an attic room. The pictures show beds in the attic rooms but they are still deducted from the count. All of them are currently STC but I can see that all of them were listed as "Guide price 120,000 to 130,000!" except one which was listed at 130,000 and "Offers over!"

Ok, so your seller and EA have been quite naughty.
They have seemingly added a premium by calling it a third bedroom, when they shouldn't have.
You could land them in it, and would do if you pulled out; the EA would have to - legally - relist it correctly as a 2-bed as they cannot now claim they don't know. It would be easy to report them if they tried otherwise.
The seller would then almost certainly have to knock a good £10k from their asking, so that scuppers the dream of their next house. So, the seller owes you the full £5k.
But, you'd also both lose out if it falls through.
It would be a considerate move by you to agree to a 50:50 split, and they'd better be bludy grateful if you do this!

ThisIsWeird

AJM1984 said:

A twist in the tale....

The vendor is insisting that there are building regs while still pursuing regularisation. However, nobody can seem to figure out what they cover. Please bear in mind I don't fully understand these things but I'll try to put the information across as I have heard and read. 

There IS a certificate attached to the property. In the section where it's supposed to detail the work (at least to some understanding) it just says "New dwelling, house" or something to that effect. It's also signed off by an electrical engineer from a company which has long since gone into liquidation. This, as far as we can tell, can surely only apply to the full rewire of the house which was done at the same time as the full renovation and loft conversion. There is a full electrical certificate too as a separate document. Both our solicitors and lender can only assume the building certificate is electrical based. 

Which local authority is this? Most have website 'Planning Portals', where you can find info on this kind of stuff - they keep adding old records to it.
Have you checked? I have to say, it isn't looking promising...
See what they come up with, and if they fail, tell the EA the facts of life;
1) it has been incorrectly listed as 3-bed. You can demonstrate this by the other listings.
2) it's likely around £10k overpriced as a result
3) should the sale fall through, they'd have to relist it correctly, as they now know the facts. They would be open to action if they didn't.
4) if the sale falls through, their client will be stuffed, and likely lose ~£10k in any resale, so their dreams of their new house are gone
5) for you to agree to split the difference is generous. They'd better not push it!

It's your call. Good luck. If you want this house, then I'd do it; long term, this incident will be just an amusing anecdote. :-)

AJM1984

ThisIsWeird said:

AJM1984 said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Hi AJM.

"It's a loft conversion. Every house for sale recently on the same road has one but is marketed as 2 bedroom by other EA. Around the valuation mark we have received from our lender."

Can you confirm - are you saying that the other houses in this street, those with similar (non-conforming) loft conversions, are correctly being marketed as '2-bed', but still have listing values of around £135-140k? Or, are these 'correctly-labelled' houses significantly lower in value?

There have been 4 other houses on the road, within the last month or so, each one with the same building specifications; maybe slightly different garden size or parking. Listed as 2 bed with an attic room. The pictures show beds in the attic rooms but they are still deducted from the count. All of them are currently STC but I can see that all of them were listed as "Guide price 120,000 to 130,000!" except one which was listed at 130,000 and "Offers over!"

Ok, so your seller and EA have been quite naughty.
They have seemingly added a premium by calling it a third bedroom, when they shouldn't have.
You could land them in it, and would do if you pulled out; the EA would have to - legally - relist it correctly as a 2-bed as they cannot now claim they don't know. It would be easy to report them if they tried otherwise.
The seller would then almost certainly have to knock a good £10k from their asking, so that scuppers the dream of their next house. So, the seller owes you the full £5k.
But, you'd also both lose out if it falls through.
It would be a considerate move by you to agree to a 50:50 split, and they'd better be bludy grateful if you do this!

This is exactly what my MA is saying. The EA was originally telling us we were wrong, the surveyor was wrong, the lender was wrong. However, our MA told us to get the EA to ring him and she quickly changed her tune. He said "The penny has now dropped with the EA and she's treading dangerous ground." 
We will, absolutely, pursue this if we lose out now. Our MA has already offered support. I've downloaded PDF copies of the EA brochure and adverts, taken screenshots, saved emails etc. It's listed as 3 bedroom everywhere. Our MA says we shouldn't have to take on extra costs here. We even suggested that the EA might want to waive her fees applied to the vendor to help our vendor lower her costs and pass the savings onto us. We are trying to think outside the box. We're prepared to meet somewhere in the middle if we can.

AJM1984

ThisIsWeird said:

AJM1984 said:

A twist in the tale....

The vendor is insisting that there are building regs while still pursuing regularisation. However, nobody can seem to figure out what they cover. Please bear in mind I don't fully understand these things but I'll try to put the information across as I have heard and read. 

There IS a certificate attached to the property. In the section where it's supposed to detail the work (at least to some understanding) it just says "New dwelling, house" or something to that effect. It's also signed off by an electrical engineer from a company which has long since gone into liquidation. This, as far as we can tell, can surely only apply to the full rewire of the house which was done at the same time as the full renovation and loft conversion. There is a full electrical certificate too as a separate document. Both our solicitors and lender can only assume the building certificate is electrical based. 

Which local authority is this? Most have website 'Planning Portals', where you can find info on this kind of stuff - they keep adding old records to it.
Have you checked? I have to say, it isn't looking promising...
See what they come up with, and if they fail, tell the EA the facts of life;
1) it has been incorrectly listed as 3-bed. You can demonstrate this by the other listings.
2) it's likely around £10k overpriced as a result
3) should the sale fall through, they'd have to relist it correctly, as they now know the facts. They would be open to action if they didn't.
4) if the sale falls through, their client will be stuffed, and likely lose ~£10k in any resale, so their dreams of their new house are gone
5) for you to agree to split the difference is generous. They'd better not push it!

It's your call. Good luck. If you want this house, then I'd do it; long term, this incident will be just an amusing anecdote. :-)

There is absolutely nothing on the local authority planning portal. I searched up the BRCC on the NAPIT site though and it says "New dwelling, house."

I guess I'll probably find out on Monday what's happening, if I'm lucky. Our MA reckons there's no chance whatsoever of our vendor getting regularisation before her two week exchange date, particularly if the conversion needs work. 

Edit to add: After looking into all this over the last few hours, I think NAPIT is just electrics. So there aren't any listed regs for the conversion. I've never looked at any of this stuff before but that's the conclusion I'm coming to. 

RHemmings

AJM1984 said:

ThisIsWeird said:

AJM1984 said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Hi AJM.

"It's a loft conversion. Every house for sale recently on the same road has one but is marketed as 2 bedroom by other EA. Around the valuation mark we have received from our lender."

Can you confirm - are you saying that the other houses in this street, those with similar (non-conforming) loft conversions, are correctly being marketed as '2-bed', but still have listing values of around £135-140k? Or, are these 'correctly-labelled' houses significantly lower in value?

There have been 4 other houses on the road, within the last month or so, each one with the same building specifications; maybe slightly different garden size or parking. Listed as 2 bed with an attic room. The pictures show beds in the attic rooms but they are still deducted from the count. All of them are currently STC but I can see that all of them were listed as "Guide price 120,000 to 130,000!" except one which was listed at 130,000 and "Offers over!"

Ok, so your seller and EA have been quite naughty.
They have seemingly added a premium by calling it a third bedroom, when they shouldn't have.
You could land them in it, and would do if you pulled out; the EA would have to - legally - relist it correctly as a 2-bed as they cannot now claim they don't know. It would be easy to report them if they tried otherwise.
The seller would then almost certainly have to knock a good £10k from their asking, so that scuppers the dream of their next house. So, the seller owes you the full £5k.
But, you'd also both lose out if it falls through.
It would be a considerate move by you to agree to a 50:50 split, and they'd better be bludy grateful if you do this!

This is exactly what my MA is saying. The EA was originally telling us we were wrong, the surveyor was wrong, the lender was wrong. However, our MA told us to get the EA to ring him and she quickly changed her tune. He said "The penny has now dropped with the EA and she's treading dangerous ground." 
We will, absolutely, pursue this if we lose out now. Our MA has already offered support. I've downloaded PDF copies of the EA brochure and adverts, taken screenshots, saved emails etc. It's listed as 3 bedroom everywhere. Our MA says we shouldn't have to take on extra costs here. We even suggested that the EA might want to waive her fees applied to the vendor to help our vendor lower her costs and pass the savings onto us. We are trying to think outside the box. We're prepared to meet somewhere in the middle if we can.

The Property Ombudsman scheme (if your agent is a member) is clear that EAs are responsible for providing necessary and accurate information to potential buyers, and other clients. It works on a 'what the EA should know, and should find out', so the EA can't claim ignorance and no fault if they don't ask questions that they should. 

If things fall through, and you have suffered losses, then you can apply to the ombudsman for compensation, and depending on how they view their case you may receive it. There are cases in their published cases where this has happened. Though, mostly people who got further into the process than you. 

I'm not yet as familiar with the Property Redress Scheme yet. But, if your EAs are members of the PRS, then it may still be worth having a look. 

In another thread you mention the possibility of moving in with family until you've sorted things out. Provided that you don't overstay your welcome (keeping family members informed may help), then this could solve a lot of problems. Including your S21, again mentioned in another thread. 

In the past I had my sister move into my flat when she had housing woes. I was happy to do so, and would have been happy had she stayed longer than the month or two that she did. I've also stayed with a mother-in-law for a month when presented with a rental contract that was way, way, unreasonable. 

EDIT: One case study on The Property Redress Scheme's site is about misrepresentation to a buyer. In that case, the floor-plan specified about 100m2 of area, when it was actually nearer 80. The scheme found in favour of the buyer, but the compensation was only £1000 and the buyer had bought the property. https://www.theprs.co.uk/Resource/ConsumerResource/16

sheramber

AJM1984 said:

Albermarle said:

AJM1984 said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Hi AJM.

"It's a loft conversion. Every house for sale recently on the same road has one but is marketed as 2 bedroom by other EA. Around the valuation mark we have received from our lender."

Can you confirm - are you saying that the other houses in this street, those with similar (non-conforming) loft conversions, are correctly being marketed as '2-bed', but still have listing values of around £135-140k? Or, are these 'correctly-labelled' houses significantly lower in value?

There have been 4 other houses on the road, within the last month or so, each one with the same building specifications; maybe slightly different garden size or parking. Listed as 2 bed with an attic room. The pictures show beds in the attic rooms but they are still deducted from the count. All of them are currently STC but I can see that all of them were listed as "Guide price 120,000 to 130,000!" except one which was listed at 130,000 and "Offers over!"

A bit strange that all 4 houses have converted lofts, but without building regs ( as well as the one you are maybe buying) . Maybe the same local builder did them all on the cheap/cash in hand !

It is very odd! The other houses have open plan attic rooms (again, with full double beds in) without doors and that's the key difference. The one we're looking at has sacrificed floor space to put in a full doorway at the top of the fixed staircase. The room is L shaped. Under all the ceiling sloping, where it meets the floor, the wall space is fully fitted cupboards with storage shelves and another door leading to a walk in closet next to the entrance doorway. The finish is superb, which is why we were surprised to find it had no building certificates. It has electrics, heating and two velux windows. One facing the front and one facing the back of the house.
Two houses around the corner, less than .2miles away, are advertised as two bedroom but depict the same loft conversions as the other houses. Again with beds in. They are listed as 110,000 and 120,000 offers over.

two velux windows. One facing the front and one facing the back of the house.

Are these adequate for escaping in case of fire?

ThisIsWeird

AJM1984 said:

ThisIsWeird said:

AJM1984 said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Hi AJM.

"It's a loft conversion. Every house for sale recently on the same road has one but is marketed as 2 bedroom by other EA. Around the valuation mark we have received from our lender."

Can you confirm - are you saying that the other houses in this street, those with similar (non-conforming) loft conversions, are correctly being marketed as '2-bed', but still have listing values of around £135-140k? Or, are these 'correctly-labelled' houses significantly lower in value?

There have been 4 other houses on the road, within the last month or so, each one with the same building specifications; maybe slightly different garden size or parking. Listed as 2 bed with an attic room. The pictures show beds in the attic rooms but they are still deducted from the count. All of them are currently STC but I can see that all of them were listed as "Guide price 120,000 to 130,000!" except one which was listed at 130,000 and "Offers over!"

Ok, so your seller and EA have been quite naughty.
They have seemingly added a premium by calling it a third bedroom, when they shouldn't have.
You could land them in it, and would do if you pulled out; the EA would have to - legally - relist it correctly as a 2-bed as they cannot now claim they don't know. It would be easy to report them if they tried otherwise.
The seller would then almost certainly have to knock a good £10k from their asking, so that scuppers the dream of their next house. So, the seller owes you the full £5k.
But, you'd also both lose out if it falls through.
It would be a considerate move by you to agree to a 50:50 split, and they'd better be bludy grateful if you do this!

This is exactly what my MA is saying. The EA was originally telling us we were wrong, the surveyor was wrong, the lender was wrong. However, our MA told us to get the EA to ring him and she quickly changed her tune. He said "The penny has now dropped with the EA and she's treading dangerous ground." 
We will, absolutely, pursue this if we lose out now. Our MA has already offered support. I've downloaded PDF copies of the EA brochure and adverts, taken screenshots, saved emails etc. It's listed as 3 bedroom everywhere. Our MA says we shouldn't have to take on extra costs here. We even suggested that the EA might want to waive her fees applied to the vendor to help our vendor lower her costs and pass the savings onto us. We are trying to think outside the box. We're prepared to meet somewhere in the middle if we can.

I'm not sure the EA has done anything wrong yet. 
It's not for them to check building control records, and determine whether every room or extension 'conforms'. They go by what they saw and were told. 
But, now they know the situation, they cannot continue listing it incorrectly. 
Is my understanding.
So I suspect you might not have a claim against them.