Purchase about to fall through due to misrepresentation

BarelySentientAI

AJM1984 said:

RHemmings said:

AJM1984 said:

I don't know about that tbh. The EA says other lenders and solicitors would happily class it as three bedroom despite no regs. Maybe she thinks the top of the chain can push back exchange giving my seller more time to market her house again for the same price we agreed? The EA seems to give out the general vibe that we're the idiots about to miss out. Hence me needing some impartial feedback.

I would definitely check this thoroughly. Easy to say that, particularly if it was verbal. The firm evidence that you have is that it isn't. 

Agreed. Our MA used to be a regional manager for a huge EA chain and he implied that under no circumstances can it be marketed as three bedroom, especially now everyone is aware of the lack of regs. He's been mediating with the EA on our behalf. He's very experienced and very reassuring. We trust his judgement. He says if we pull out they'll need to remarket as two bed. Unless the current owner gets a certificate; which we'd happily wait for and accept. The EA also wants to confirm with our solicitor that they haven't uncovered any regs. It's frustrating because there are regs and certificates for everything else except one replacement window. (Which indemnity was agreed.)

Again - some quotes to clarify this:

From the RICS glossary.


Legally - there is no problem at all.  A survey could quite happily describe that loft conversion as a bedroom.

What this MA is saying is probably relying on guidance published to EAs to help them comply with Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations (2008).  That's all about misleading terms, and has things like "don't say 'close to' because different people could think close means different things", "don't use 'recently decorated' unless it was every single part of the entire house", and "don't say 'surrounded by open fields' if there are actually only fields to three sides".

For the conversion/regs aspect, the guidance says this:

Their wording is slightly iffy, because I think it should actually say "is not proven to be suitable to be used as such" in the first paragraph, but that's essentially the part that's getting discussed.

loubel

Why doesn't the loft conversion have building regulations approval? Is it safe to use as a bedroom? What did your survey actually say about it?

AJM1984

BarelySentientAI said:

AJM1984 said:

RHemmings said:

AJM1984 said:

I don't know about that tbh. The EA says other lenders and solicitors would happily class it as three bedroom despite no regs. Maybe she thinks the top of the chain can push back exchange giving my seller more time to market her house again for the same price we agreed? The EA seems to give out the general vibe that we're the idiots about to miss out. Hence me needing some impartial feedback.

I would definitely check this thoroughly. Easy to say that, particularly if it was verbal. The firm evidence that you have is that it isn't. 

Agreed. Our MA used to be a regional manager for a huge EA chain and he implied that under no circumstances can it be marketed as three bedroom, especially now everyone is aware of the lack of regs. He's been mediating with the EA on our behalf. He's very experienced and very reassuring. We trust his judgement. He says if we pull out they'll need to remarket as two bed. Unless the current owner gets a certificate; which we'd happily wait for and accept. The EA also wants to confirm with our solicitor that they haven't uncovered any regs. It's frustrating because there are regs and certificates for everything else except one replacement window. (Which indemnity was agreed.)

Again - some quotes to clarify this:

From the RICS glossary.


Legally - there is no problem at all.  A survey could quite happily describe that loft conversion as a bedroom.

What this MA is saying is probably relying on guidance published to EAs to help them comply with Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations (2008).  That's all about misleading terms, and has things like "don't say 'close to' because different people could think close means different things", "don't use 'recently decorated' unless it was every single part of the entire house", and "don't say 'surrounded by open fields' if there are actually only fields to three sides".

For the conversion/regs aspect, the guidance says this:

Their wording is slightly iffy, because I think it should actually say "is not proven to be suitable to be used as such" in the first paragraph, but that's essentially the part that's getting discussed.

Thank you so much for the effort you've put in there, that's so lovely of you!

I do believe it's due to the wording in the bottom section. It's definitely up for debate! To be honest I just assumed everything would be fine as it simply looks like a nice little room to me. The debate on what's a room and what isn't seems to be very subjective depending on the depth of the perspective. (To me a room is something with walls, floor, ceiling and a door!)

housebuyer143

Really at this point it's who wants it more. 
If it were my dream house and the seller wouldn't drop and I could find the money, I would. If you are not concerned either way, then tell the to drop it or you walk. Assuming she can and it's her dream house she will. The cost to her for starting again seems much worse than it is for you. 

AJM1984

Little update.

The EA now understands there are no regs. They have explained the options to the vendor. The vendor is approaching her solicitors to see how she could get regularisation to pass on to us for a 3 bed valuation. She'll either proceed with that or find out that the cost and timeframe for doing so will be too long/expensive and have to backtrack to price renegotiation with us or risk losing the house she was due to exchange on in two weeks. Or she pulls everything and we all lose. Or we cough up.

If she's willing to try regularisation rather than pull the sale, there's still hope. It needs a mains attached fire alarm fitted. Without the walls and floors being torn apart, I'm not sure what else. (All renovations were done over 12 years ago.) 

AJM1984

loubel said:

Why doesn't the loft conversion have building regulations approval? Is it safe to use as a bedroom? What did your survey actually say about it?

They just didn't get permission or approval. I think it, at least, needed party wall permissions. I'm not hugely familiar with the terminology. Our surveyor says it's suspect because of the smoke alarm being battery operated and without him having x-ray vision he can't see the insulation, support structure etc. He's not sure about fire door application either. 

GDB2222

£5k is fairly little in the scheme of things. I agree with others that it could be shared out a bit.

Thinking about your other thread, you could ask your landlord for some help. She wants you out of your home, and you can point out the reality of her situation: She needs to engage a solicitor and bailiffs if she has to evict you. Realistically, that will leave her around £5k out of pocket in fees.  On the other hand, you can leave voluntarily in line with her timetable, but you need some help, please - how about £2.5k? Then settle for £1.5k.

And, ask your vendor to share the £5k deficit, and settle for £1.5-2k. 

And, that leaves you picking up £1-2k of the balance. With it all sorted, without too much stress, really.

With a bit of chutzpah, you can sort this out!

GDB2222

AJM1984 said:

loubel said:

Why doesn't the loft conversion have building regulations approval? Is it safe to use as a bedroom? What did your survey actually say about it?

They just didn't get permission or approval. I think it, at least, needed party wall permissions. I'm not hugely familiar with the terminology. Our surveyor says it's suspect because of the smoke alarm being battery operated and without him having x-ray vision he can't see the insulation, support structure etc. He's not sure about fire door application either. 

If the loft conversion wasn't done with proper building regs supervision, it's quite likely a fire death trap. It's fancy storage space, and it probably cannot be regularised as a bedroom without major work costing far more than £5k.

The vendor cannot prove this meets building regs without major exposure of the structure, and of course the most likely reason it was done without involvement of building control is that it doesn't meet the regs. 

Seriously, you should believe your valuer!

Party wall approval is no longer a problem, but that doesn't make it safe

 

AJM1984

GDB2222 said:

£5k is fairly little in the scheme of things. I agree with others that it could be shared out a bit.

Thinking about your other thread, you could ask your landlord for some help. She wants you out of your home, and you can point out the reality of her situation: She needs to engage a solicitor and bailiffs if she has to evict you. Realistically, that will leave her around £5k out of pocket in fees.  On the other hand, you can leave voluntarily in line with her timetable, but you need some help, please - how about £2.5k? Then settle for £1.5k.

And, ask your vendor to share the £5k deficit, and settle for £1.5-2k. 

And, that leaves you picking up £1-2k of the balance. With it all sorted, without too much stress, really.

With a bit of chutzpah, you can sort this out!

Aha, chutzpah, I love it!!

We told our LL the situation last night. They knocked on the door while we were on the phone to our MA. We said the chain was potentially breaking and their response was "Oh, well, I'll sort out your Section 21 tomorrow. Guess you can ignore the other paperwork." and then left. It was like a sitcom... 

AJM1984

GDB2222 said:

AJM1984 said:

loubel said:

Why doesn't the loft conversion have building regulations approval? Is it safe to use as a bedroom? What did your survey actually say about it?

They just didn't get permission or approval. I think it, at least, needed party wall permissions. I'm not hugely familiar with the terminology. Our surveyor says it's suspect because of the smoke alarm being battery operated and without him having x-ray vision he can't see the insulation, support structure etc. He's not sure about fire door application either. 

If the loft conversion wasn't done with proper building regs supervision, it's quite likely a fire death trap. It's fancy storage space, and it probably cannot be regularised as a bedroom without major work costing far more than £5k.

The vendor cannot prove this meets building regs without major exposure of the structure, and of course the most likely reason it was done without involvement of building control is that it doesn't meet the regs. 

Seriously, you should believe your valuer!

Party wall approval is no longer a problem, but that doesn't make it safe

 

We actually signed something for our lender saying we acknowledge it isn't a bedroom and can't be used as such. Like I said, we don't NEED it. But with the surveyor then confirming it doesn't meet certain legal requirements our lender dropped the valuation from 3 bedroom to 2. I anticipated it as a possibility, because I worry about everything, hence my misery in the other thread about housing purchase stalling or failing... One of those instances where being right isn't a good thing. Depending on how you look at it, I suppose!