Survey results - rewiring and new boiler and heating system required

pjs493

I've received a level 3 survey for a grade I listed building I'm in the process of buying. In the most part, the survey highlights things I was aware of: some cosmetic damage caused by damp that is historic from before the roof was repaired (although it looks like this will cost more to rectify than I first thought but that's fine), some damage to original windows that need to be repaired, the general dated condition of the kitchen and bathrooms, the need to properly vent and close off the ope fires (that can no longer be used for insurance reasons), etc. But it also identifies some things I wasn't expecting.

Some of the stuff such as needing to improve the insulation in the loft, remove a wasp nest, etc is fine, I'm happy to fork out for the added expense and I planned to add further insulation to the loft and board it out in the short term anyway for storage. Some other things will be tended to when I redecorate and refurbish each room (eg grout between tiles, fixing floor boards, etc) so again, not a problem.

However, the survey states that the heating system, pipes, and hot water tank are 40 years old and need replacing ASAP, the boiler is over 20 years old and needs replacing ASAP, and that the entire house needs rewiring and a new consumer unit needs to be installed ASAP. Are these the sorts of things I should be negotiating with the vendor over? 

I expected a new boiler would be needed at some point in the next few years from an energy efficiency point of view, but I didn't realise it would need doing before moving in. The rewiring seems like it'll be easier to do when the house is empty too. Estimated cost for the heating, hot water tank, boiler, and rewiring seems to be in the region of £20,000 based on the survey estimates. Do I try to renegotiate?

propertyrental

Surveyors are not heating engineers - so cannot do more than suggest the heating etc might need replacing.

Likewise, they are not e;electricians.

A 20 year old boiler that is working (is it?) does not need replacing 'ASAP'. Wait till it dies and a proper engineer says he cannot get parts/fix it. It might die next year or it might keep going another 10 years.

Why does the 'heating system and pipes' need replacing? Are the pipes leaking? Blocked so that the rads don't get hot water? Probably just needs flushing.

If the wiring is rubber coated and the rubber is disintegrating then yes, a re-wire is needed. If they are plastic then OK, they won't be to current standards (but then nothing will be to current standards in an old property - how old is it?) but are probably both safe and serviceable. If you are genuinely concerned, pay an electrician to report, but again, be aware of the distinction between 'not to current standards' and 'dangerous needs replacing'.

A consumer unit that old probably does need replacing, but it's not a huge expense (£300 CU and labour?) and like the insulation and wasp nest just part and parcel of buying an older property. ALL older properties need constant maintenance,

ps - why remove the wasp nest? Is it from last year? Wasps don't return, they make new nests each year!

pps - Adding insulation is a good idea but not essential. It's an 'improvement' that you might or might not choose to make. The last owner was obviously happy living in a cold property with no, or thin, insulation - you could do the same

ppps - if you are worried by those aspects of the survey, don't buy an old house.

pppps - you should consider the survey as a useful source of information about your new home, with suggestions on how to improve it or how to prioritise maintenance. It is NOT an automatic list of reasons to re-negotiate price.

pjs493

propertyrental said:

Surveyors are not heating engineers - so cannot do more than suggest the heating etc might need replacing.

Likewise, they are not e;electricians.

A 20 year old boiler that is working (is it?) does not need replacing 'ASAP'. Wait till it dies and a proper engineer says he cannot get parts/fix it. It might die next year or it might keep going another 10 years.

Why does the 'heating system and pipes' need replacing? Are the pipes leaking? Blocked so that the rads don't get hot water? Probably just needs flushing.

If the wiring is rubber coated and the rubber is disintegrating then yes, a re-wire is needed. If they are plastic then OK, they won't be to current standards (but then nothing will be to current standards in an old property - how old is it?) but are probably both safe and serviceable. If you are genuinely concerned, pay an electrician to report, but again, be aware of the distinction between 'not to current standards' and 'dangerous needs replacing'.

A consumer unit that old probably does need replacing, but it's not a huge expense (£300 CU and labour?) and like the insulation and wasp nest just part and parcel of buying an older property. ALL older properties need constant maintenance,

ps - why remove the wasp nest? Is it from last year? Wasps don't return, they make new nests each year!

pps - Adding insulation is a good idea but not essential. It's an 'improvement' that you might or might not choose to make. The last owner was obviously happy living in a cold property with no, or thin, insulation - you could do the same

ppps - if you are worried by those aspects of the survey, don't buy an old house.

pppps - you should consider the survey as a useful source of information about your new home, with suggestions on how to improve it or how to prioritise maintenance. It is NOT an automatic list of reasons to re-negotiate price.

You seem to have a somewhat frustrated and combative tone and I'm unsure why you feel the need to be that way.

In any case, the surveyor has said they are dangerous and need replacing ASAP and I don't want to put my children at risk by ignoring a professional report. I also plan to ask the vendor if they have had any recent gas and/or electric safety assessments. I also don't want to put a grade I listed building at risk due to negligence and avoiding work that obviously needs doing to make the place safe. An electrical fault could cause a fire. 

Plus it would cost more money to rewire once furniture, etc is moved in so it makes sense to do it straight away regardless of the safety issue. I also don't fancy using a dangerous or damaged boiler and water tank and/or have them fail catastrophically in the middle of winter. That actually happened to my husband and I in military accommodation a couple of years ago when one of our children was just a small baby. That was not fun at all.

Wasps, unlike bees, do not return to nests each year. The nest is historic. The removal will be about £100 so will be easy to do at the same time as upgrading the insulation which I plan to do short term anyway. I also plan to board out the loft for added storage. 

The previous owners used it as a second home so spent most of their time there during the summer when insulation and heat retention weren't as big an issue as they will be when I'm living there all year with young children. The current owners haven't really used it at all in the last few years due to old age and the distance from their main residence. I'm not worried about these aspects of the survey, as mentioned above.

I'm not looking at the survey as 'an automatic list of reasons to renegotiate the price', I'm asking people if I should and if these are things that people typically negotiate on. There's another £20k of work that needs doing that I'm happy to invest in because I was aware of those things when I put my offer in. I wasn't aware that it needed rewiring or that it would need a new hot water, heating system, and boiler straight away. 

The costs are based on those estimates given in the report by the surveyor who is familiar with the estimated cost for work in that area, the nature of some of the work required (given the age and uniqueness of the property), and spent a day at the house examining it. I'm sure quotes from the right tradesmen will differ, but for now I'm working on the quotes in the report because it's better than guessing or getting quotes off the internet compared to someone who has actually seen the property and knows, in their expert opinion, what needs to be done in the immediate, medium, and long term.

user1977

In short, no, and I’d be surprised if the surveyor really has said these things are all dangerous and need to be replaced ASAP. What exactly does the survey say?

RAS

Any frustration expressed will be because this forum is littered with threads from people who have read their survey and think their potential purchase needs major work when it would function perfectly well for years.

It's a function of how things are phrased by surveyors who aren't specialists in areas like structure, electrics and heating. And of the fact that virtually no properties other than those built in the last few years meet current standards. However based on other threads, many of the houses built in recent years have more snags than older properties that have stood the test of time.

Anyone wanting to buy a building that meets current standards should avoid properties built before 2022. Which is why some posters feel that it is not appropriate to expect buy an older property with limited maintenance and negotiate reductions based on the survey. Many who have lived in private tenancies are shocked to find that privately owned and occupied property does not have to meet the same standards as rented. And when purchasers went round a quick look at the infrastructure gives a clue as to date and what probably needs doing; it doesn't require a survey and can be factored into the offer. 

When I bought, installing wiring to the 16th IEE was considered really up there. Now the required rules are the 18th IEE. So any wiring over 2 years old may not meet current standards. It doesn't need ripping out and replacing. However if your purchase still has rubber coated wiring and round pin sockets, it needs replacement wiring and new sockets. If it has an old distribution board, and plastic wiring, it needs a new consumer unit, checking continuity of each circuit and maybe the earthing updating. You may want to install additional sockets, or change the existing ones to include charging ports, but that is about life style changes not safety.

And as to the the wasps' nest, I ripped two out of my mother's loft before we sold, as an older woman. They crumbled in minutes. It had cost £90 to exterminate one previously.

Scotbot

I bought a 4 bed 60 Yr old house 7 years ago. I had an electrical check which showed faults so had partial rewire but the consumer unit was not replaced. The entire heating system was replaced including pipes as  the boiler was old and would need replacing sooner rather than later, the  piping was ugly and rads were leaking. Cost 10k. I understand costs have risen around 50% so  depending on size of property 20k is reasonable. 

In absence of a valid safely  certificate surveys automatically rate electrical and heating systems as  3 or red i.e requires immediate attention as surveyors are not qualified to comment on these issues. This is misleading as the work may not be required immediately 

Unusual for them to comment much further so if the survey recommends the work needs to be done it makes me think the surveyor has seen something to suggest this. I have certainly viewed properties where the electrics are visibly  very old. It may not be required ASAP but I agree with OP if it needs to be done  easier to be done when house is empty.

Speaking to the surveyor will confirm why they think the work is  necessary and an electrical safety check will confirm if the wiring is dangerous. 

Bottom line probably not required immediately but will need to be done in the next couple of years. With young kids and an old building I would not wait for the boiler to fail


As to whether to renegotiate one could argue this work was predictable based on age of property.    I would give it a go, ask for 10 k off and provide survey as evidence. Worst that can happen is they say no.

Grizebeck

people read more into survey reports then are actually there

YoungBlueEyes

The answers given on some boards here are necessarily factual, if a little 'straight-talking'. 

I agree with the above posters - a surveyor is not a specialist in electrics/gas etc, so if you want to be sure about those things before moving in I'd be getting the proper trades round to give them a going over. Old doesn't always equate to dangerous, but for peace of mind (and a more accurate to-do list) have them checked by the relevant trade so you can be sure. 

As for negotiation, only if something major comes up that you couldn't reasonable see on a viewing.

Jemma01

I've just had a level 2 survey done. A lot of what you said was in my report, just worded differently. I got an electrician in, and a heating engineer in. The electrician failed the test and said it will cost approximately 2k to fix, and the heating engineer said everything was fine.

So I suggest you get the professionals in, they can give you accurate information and a proper quote. I wouldn't go into things blindly. The seller agreed to fix the electricity since the electrician said there's something we need to investigate, it could take 30mins, it could take 8 hours, and I'll have to pay per hour. i wanted peace of mind, so asked them to fix any red issue in the report.

Section62

pjs493 said:

...In any case, the surveyor has said they are dangerous and need replacing ASAP and I don't want to put my children at risk by ignoring a professional report...

The forum member in the thread below has a much older boiler and was told - by a heating professional - that their boiler could "explode" due to a fault and they needed a new boiler.  Another professional fitted a simple part and their boiler then worked fine.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6509931/oil-fired-central-heating-thermostat-may-not-be-working/p1

The first priority of (true) professionals giving advice is to cover their own backside by leaning towards the worst possible case.  Professionals who do installation/maintenance work tend to lean towards the option which generates the most profit for them.  Getting good professional advice is getting harder and harder.

So long as the boiler is inspected and maintained by someone qualified to do the job the risks should be negligible.  Rather than a like-for-like boiler replacement you may want to consider a heat pump, or if the property is large and rural maybe some form of biomass system.

Either way, if the existing boiler is safe and functional then you can't expect the vendor to pay for your chosen replacement.  By all means ask, but be aware they may decide you are a 'difficult' buyer and pull out of the sale if you start a full-on renegotiation of the agreed price.

pjs493 said:

Wasps, unlike bees, do not return to nests each year. The nest is historic. The removal will be about £100 so will be easy to do at the same time as upgrading the insulation which I plan to do short term anyway. I also plan to board out the loft for added storage.

Don't forget to obtain listed building consent first.

Also be aware the 'loft' was probably just a roof void originally, and the structure was 'designed' just to provide basic support to the roof covering and the ceiling of the room below.  To convert the loft for storage (even for just a few light boxes) is likely to require additional structure, which with a listed building will not be cheap.  It might be more economic to provide the storage in an outbuilding, although that would also need LB consent if there is nothing suitable in place already.

Albermarle

However, the survey states that the heating system, pipes, and hot water tank are 40 years old and need replacing ASAP, the boiler is over 20 years old and needs replacing ASAP, and that the entire house needs rewiring and a new consumer unit needs to be installed ASAP.

As already said the forum has lots of threads along a similar theme.

However it is unusual for a surveyor to make such specific comments about the heating and electrical systems.

Usually they make some more general remarks and advise you to have them checked.

How did they know the hot water tank was over 40 years old for example ? Also I do not think it is normal to replace heating pipework, just because it is over a certain age.