Is the plumber or the manufacturer responsible?

Fedup56

We had a whole new central heating and hot water system installed recently by local plumber, we have been having problems with the hot water cylinder and the plumber has returned several times to try to resolve the problem but it has now been decided that the cylinder is probably faulty and he advised me it would be replaced. However, now he is saying it is the manufacturer who will be dealing with this.  What are my rights? Should the plumber replace the cylinder and then its their problem to deal with the manufacturer or do I have to deal direct with the manufacturer?  

Arunmor

Who sold you the system the plumber or retailer?  If the plumber its all his problem if you hired the plumber yourself then you need to contact the retailer.

Of course we also have the tricky option and that is the retailer arranged fitting with a plumber nominated by them but who is not employed by the retailer.

Which is it?

Fedup56

Arunmor said:

Who sold you the system the plumber or retailer?  If the plumber its all his problem if you hired the plumber yourself then you need to contact the retailer.

Of course we also have the tricky option and that is the retailer arranged fitting with a plumber nominated by them but who is not employed by the retailer.

Which is it?

Hi
I paid the plumber to supply and install the whole system, the plumber purchased everything himself from the supplier. 

molerat

Then it is 100% down to him to sort it.

Okell

Fedup56 said:

Arunmor said:

Who sold you the system the plumber or retailer?  If the plumber its all his problem if you hired the plumber yourself then you need to contact the retailer.

Of course we also have the tricky option and that is the retailer arranged fitting with a plumber nominated by them but who is not employed by the retailer.

Which is it?

Hi
I paid the plumber to supply and install the whole system, the plumber purchased everything himself from the supplier. 

Then your consumer rights are against the plumber and it's his reponsibility to sort out.  If the hw cylinder is faulty it's for him to replace (or repair) and for him to argue it out with the manufacturer.  Not your problem.

However, are the parts of the system covered by a manufacturer's warranty or guarantee?  If so you might be better going down the warranty route rather that the consumer rights route, if the warranty gives you better protection.

In most cases you are probably better on the consumer rights route.

Whan was installation completed?  (Dates are important)

Fedup56

Okell said:

Fedup56 said:

Arunmor said:

Who sold you the system the plumber or retailer?  If the plumber its all his problem if you hired the plumber yourself then you need to contact the retailer.

Of course we also have the tricky option and that is the retailer arranged fitting with a plumber nominated by them but who is not employed by the retailer.

Which is it?

Hi
I paid the plumber to supply and install the whole system, the plumber purchased everything himself from the supplier. 

Then your consumer rights are against the plumber and it's his reponsibility to sort out.  If the hw cylinder is faulty it's for him to replace (or repair) and for him to argue it out with the manufacturer.  Not your problem.

However, are the parts of the system covered by a manufacturer's warranty or guarantee?  If so you might be better going down the warranty route rather that the consumer rights route, if the warranty gives you better protection.

In most cases you are probably better on the consumer rights route.

Whan was installation completed?  (Dates are important)

The installation was completed in September last year, had issues pretty much from then with various things done and changed, the manufacturer has told the plumber it is probably the cylinder faulty.  The cylinder is still under warranty but not sure I want any more agro dealing with the manufacturer.  Feel I should be able to tell the plumber to replace and sort. 

bluelad1927

I feel your pain as I had a very similar circumstances with a cylinder replacement just over a year ago. Have you spoken to the manufacturer of the cylinder. I'd be amazed if they actually told the plumber it's likely to be a faulty cylinder

Arunmor

Okell said:

However, are the parts of the system covered by a manufacturer's warranty or guarantee?  If so you might be better going down the warranty route rather that the consumer rights route, if the warranty gives you better protection.

In most cases you are probably better on the consumer rights route.

Whan was installation completed?  (Dates are important)

I don't think this is good advice, there is a chance the plumber has c0cked the job up and op could be left in limbo.

Hope you know where the plumber lives is the worst comes to the worst.  Fingers crossed he is straight up but start preparing.

Okell

Arunmor said:

Okell said:

However, are the parts of the system covered by a manufacturer's warranty or guarantee?  If so you might be better going down the warranty route rather that the consumer rights route, if the warranty gives you better protection.

In most cases you are probably better on the consumer rights route.

Whan was installation completed?  (Dates are important)

I don't think this is good advice, there is a chance the plumber has c0cked the job up and op could be left in limbo.

Hope you know where the plumber lives is the worst comes to the worst.  Fingers crossed he is straight up but start preparing.

Which bit aren't you happy with?

I was assuming that the OP had commissioned a plumber that he either knew to be, or trusted to be, reliable.  (And I note in your first post you said yourself that if the plumber had supplied and fitted everything - which he has - "then its all his problem".)

But yes, if the OP thinks that the faulty installation etc was down to the plumber's incompetence they might be better off going direct to the manufacturer.  But wouldn't they then have the problem of getting a plumber to install the new cylinder?

Okell

Fedup56 said:

Okell said:

Fedup56 said:

Arunmor said:

Who sold you the system the plumber or retailer?  If the plumber its all his problem if you hired the plumber yourself then you need to contact the retailer.

Of course we also have the tricky option and that is the retailer arranged fitting with a plumber nominated by them but who is not employed by the retailer.

Which is it?

Hi
I paid the plumber to supply and install the whole system, the plumber purchased everything himself from the supplier. 

Then your consumer rights are against the plumber and it's his reponsibility to sort out.  If the hw cylinder is faulty it's for him to replace (or repair) and for him to argue it out with the manufacturer.  Not your problem.

However, are the parts of the system covered by a manufacturer's warranty or guarantee?  If so you might be better going down the warranty route rather that the consumer rights route, if the warranty gives you better protection.

In most cases you are probably better on the consumer rights route.

Whan was installation completed?  (Dates are important)

The installation was completed in September last year, had issues pretty much from then with various things done and changed, the manufacturer has told the plumber it is probably the cylinder faulty.  The cylinder is still under warranty but not sure I want any more agro dealing with the manufacturer.  Feel I should be able to tell the plumber to replace and sort. 

What solution has your plumber put forward?

For example, if you go down the manufacturer warranty route I presume you go to them and they supply a replacement HW cylinder, but do they also fit it?  If they don't who will?  Will your current plumber charge you to fit it or will he accept that the one he originally fitted was faulty and do it for free?

If you want to go down the consumer rights route, then it's between you and your plumber and the manufacturer doesn't come into it as far as you are concerned.  As it's over 6 months the onus is on you to establish that the cylinder was faulty when it was installed - but if I've understood you correctly it's already been established by the manufacturer that the cylinder is faulty.  Is that right?

Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 you are entitled to have a hot water and heating system that works.  If it doesn't then - in theory - your plumber should be putting it right for you free of charge.  If he can't you are entitled to a refund.  If the plumber won't fix it or refund you, you'd have to sue him.  And if he's a "dodgy" plumber, then even if you sue successfully you might have problems enforcing the judgment.  (See previous comment from @Arunmor)

The problem is how much do you trust your plumber?  If you do trust him I'd suggest go down the consumer rights route.  If you aren't sure about him then go to the manufacturer.  If you haven't already discussed the way forward with your plumber I suggest you do so now.

These sort of "hybrid" contracts where you are paying for two things (the system itself and then installation of the system) can be tricky to unpick when you encounter problems.  See what other posters say as they might give better advice than I can.  In particular @the_lunatic_is_in_my_head is very good at analysing this sort of situation.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Okell said:

These sort of "hybrid" contracts where you are paying for two things (the system itself and then installation of the system) can be tricky to unpick when you encounter problems.  See what other posters say as they might give better advice than I can.  In particular @the_lunatic_is_in_my_head is very good at analysing this sort of situation.

If the service and goods are itemised then it's a mixed contract with a service and a supply of goods with each element treated the way we'd typically advise on here.

If it was just £x to supply and fit then it's a service and a transfer of goods with the transfer of goods having the same remedies as we'd typically advise for services. 

As OP is outside of 6 months burden of proof falls on them either way (shouldn't be difficult to get an expert opinion on something like this if required) and the only different between supply and transfer really is the trader should undergo a repeat performance followed by a price reduction (rather than repair/replace > reject/price reduction).

In an ideal world an amicable solution would be for the plumber to sort everything out and if he can use the manufacturer to assist in his liability I don't see anything wrong with that as ultimately the plumber is still responsible.

If the plumber has just told OP to go deal with the manufacturer, from a consumer rights view, that's of course not correct, whether it's pragmatic would depending upon what the manufacturer actually offers (free parts and labour might be easier than agro with the plumber). 

@Fedup56

Can you advise whether you paid £x for supply and install or paid £x for install and £x for materials? 

Whilst you don't have to, have you spoken to the manufacturer to see what they will do? If it transpires they would assist with a small cost to yourself you could suffer that cost and then (attempt to) claim it back from the plumber.

Ultimately you should tell the plumber he should resolve this and do the leg work with the manufacturer if he wises to have their assistance, his response to this should give you an idea of which path is going to be less headache and if that path is one without the plumber's involvement because he isn't engaging that would mean a failure to provide the first step remedy leading you to the second step remedy. 

Apologies if the above sounds a bit technical, feel free to question any bits that may not be clear