NPE ltd Parking Charge Notice for 2 mins and 15 seconds when doing amazon delivery

abercombine24

Hi All,

I've read the newbies thread and just have a few questions on what would be the best way to proceed.

I was doing some deliveries for Amazon Flex and got a delivery run in an apartment complex, I stopped in its "driveway" with hazards on to make the delivery to those apartments, but this turned out to be a "no parking at any time" private land zone and subsequently I received a PCN from National Parking Enforcement Ltd, who are with IPC, for being there for 2min and 15seconds. They have pictures on the PCN online portal thing too, and it even shows me with a parcel, however I dropped off a parcel at that apartment complex and a house across the street, which they also have a picture of.

The PCN came to my parents address as they are the registered keeper of the car. I noticed one of the points in the newbies thread was not to name the driver, as I don't want my parents being harassed by the debt collector letters so I will name myself as driver, does this have a big effect on the outcome? The template given in newbies thread to reply mentions it will not name the driver, but I need to name myself, so how would I change it?

I looked around for threads with any similar cases and saw this one that was won at IAS appeal

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6407888/ticketed-less-than-2-mins-for-unloading-won-at-ias-stage/p5

Also for 2mins and unloading, but in that thread the OP is a resident in the apartment complex whereas I'm an Amazon Flex delivery driver, and the parking bay thing is different, for mine it's in a "no parking at any time" zone, for OP it was not clear signage and they had written confirmation of 5min grace period from the apartment complex.

They had 3 points in their appeal

"1.      I was not parking, I was merely unloading, Jopson vs Homeguard case shows that unloading is not parking. (Should I bring Bulstrode v Lambert 1953 as well or there is no need?)"

"2.      I have written confirmation (attach my email proof) that a 5 min grace period is in the contract between Link and HA for whichever purposes deemed fit. Link cannot categorically prove that I had overstayed my 5 mins[..]"

"3.      There are 4 different T&C signs around this apartment blocks, which include, disabled parking with permit displayed, contractor parking only, allocated bay with permit parking, and no parking at any time. There is no such sign visible (to the motorist) when I entered my road. I reject their reasoning that as a resident I should be aware of all these. The parking warden has included a picture of a no parking at any time sign associated T&Cs, that was not the closest sign to where I was unloading, but from a different area/road. (include picture of where I was that shows no such sign exist, and include another of a different sign, which does prohibit parking  and even loading. None of these signs categorically prohibits loading or unloading (except 1, which isn’t a Link parking sign) or mention anything about pedestrian walkways.  "

OP won the appeal based on point 3 in that thread. I can't really use that as looking at google maps the sign is there and it's the only one. I was thinking point 1 was my best case, since I'm there to drop off parcels, not park?

Any help would be much appreciated

The PCN

Front:

hxxps://imgur.com/rZUAIt4

Back:

hxxps://imgur.com/I7MO1M0

Google street view of sign:

hxxps://imgur.com/SbAICKI

abercombine24

Also should mention, I do have a screenshot from my Amazon Flex app of being paid for a delivery work block during that date and those hours, but being new to Amazon then I didn't take a screenshot of the delivery itinerary that would show that apartment complex as a delivery address, and there's no way I can get that info now from Amazon...

Could my screenshot be helpful in proving my courier status for point 1?

Gr1pr

Read all about Jopson Vs Homeguard in this similar Amazon delivery thread

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6525002/i-have-a-pcn-for-a-private-parking-company-groupnexus/p1

No judge is going to doubt your witness statement, plus if you had to do so , you could probably SAR the DPO at Amazon for the information you require, if necessary 

Jopson is definitely your best option as the named driver, plus add poor inadequate signage and no landowner authority to the mix, regardless of what you think about them, they are always a factor in these cases 

If the registered keeper doesn't want the hassle, then they name the driver and the driver defends their legitimate actions on that day, unloading as per the Jopson case 

Coupon-mad

abercombine24 said:

Also should mention, I do have a screenshot from my Amazon Flex app of being paid for a delivery work block during that date and those hours, but being new to Amazon then I didn't take a screenshot of the delivery itinerary that would show that apartment complex as a delivery address, and there's no way I can get that info now from Amazon...

Could my screenshot be helpful in proving my courier status for point 1?

Yes, I would.  

And as well as Jopson, use this at IAS stage and quote the bit about couriers and delivery drivers:

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/keycases/Bosworth%20%26%20Others%20v%20LB%20Tower%20Hamlets.pdf

I only skim read it but it looks useful for some cases but not others.  Read it and decide if it supports your case.

I'd like to see what the supposed (anonymous) legals who decide IAS cases make of findings by real LA adjudicators.

abercombine24

Hi all, thank your for the help.

I've written a draft below, please let me know if you have any suggestions.

Unfortunately I seem to have missed the deadline for appeals on their website within 28 days, is it still worth to send the appeal first to the PCN company by email they provided or is the process now different? I assume it's now going to move to debt collector stage, is that when I could name myself as the driver for my parents to avoid harassment and then wait for court?

Draft below:

I First Name Last Name of vehicle (vehicle reg) dispute your 'parking charge', as the driver of the vehicle on the following basis.

1. I was not parking but unloading parcels as a contractor courier for Amazon Flex Delivery. Jopson vs Homeguard case shows that unloading is not parking. This unloading process took only 2 minutes and 15 seconds as states in your own "parking charge".

Furthermore, a 2015 Panel of Adjudicators (Mr Edward Houghton and Mr Alastair McFarlane) concluded that, "in the case of couriers or professional deliverers of goods on a delivery round, this commercial context would lead the Panel to conclude that this is certainly the sort of activity for which the exemption is designed - even if an individual item being delivered at any one point is small and easily carried in the hand. In the Panel’s judgment it would be wholly unrealistic to expect, for example, a DHL courier to ask himself every time he parked whether his next parcel was big enough to qualify; or to require the milkman to find a parking bay every time he stopped to deliver a bottle of milk." Therefore, even if parcels shown in your camera footage are of not heavy load, they still count as unloading for Amazon Flex Delivery.

2. The signage used was poor and inadequate, and no landowner authority was made clear.

I attach proof of my Amazon Flex Delivery shift block as a screenshot, showing that my shift was on the 10th April 2024 from 13:45:00 to 17:15:00, while the time provided on the "parking charge" is from 14:26:37 to 14:28:52.

I'm a bit confused on the second point. Is the first point strong enough or should I quote from Jopson & Homeguard too?

Many thanks again all.

Half_way

You should look at it as knocking the wind out of their sails, they may counter with you something about it being past the time to "appeal"

 There is a piece of legislation in place that should, give you up to 12 months to challenge a contract/deal something like: Consumer disputes: Alternative Dispute Resolution regulations - others who post regularly on here may be able to add more to that (and more needs adding) but once you have that then it should be used.

So Jopson vs Homegaurd must be used, together with reminding them that they, and their trained (?) staff  should be well aware of this case and as such a Parking charge notice should never have been issued, and as such they have accessed your personal data without just cause breaching GDPR, and they must cancel this parking charge and issue a full and un redacted apology to you together with re assurances that this will not happen again

If you can find out who the landowner/managing agents are and inform them that they are jointly and severally liable for the actions of their agents - i.e. the parking company, inform/tell them about Jopson vs Homeguard and as such their agents for whose actions they are jointly and severally liable for have accessed and processed your personal data without just cause in breach of GDPR (regulations)

Remind the parking company about the ADR regulations, and you have 12 months to challenge them / dispute their claim ( will need more from some of the regulars on here on that)

Gr1pr

abercombine24 said:

Hi all, thank your for the help.

 I assume it's now going to move to debt collector stage, is that when I could name myself as the driver for my parents to avoid harassment and then wait for court?

Many thanks again all.

If the keeper is not the driver, then the keeper can name the driver at any point up until a court claim is issued, but too late after a court claim is issued, so the keeper must do it, not the driver, where its 2 different people involved 

The driver cannot name themselves, or maybe should not name themselves 

For example, a parent may name a son or daughter simply because the parent does not want a court claim against them if they were not driving , because they don't want the hassle ( but it must be the truth, not deception. )

Any late appeal is simply to engage instead of ignoring, because a court may look more favourably on people who dispute an alleged debt instead of ignoring it. Appealing is sometimes used just to show engagement, even though the appeal may prove futile, it looks better to have denied the debt and tried to deal with it 

Umkomaas

You're not going to get this overturned (as unlikely as that would be at any time with an IPC outfit) now their appeal window has closed. It will take a County Court Judge to overturn it, if the PPC is daft enough to sue over a 2 minute delivery stop. But as they have 6 years to make a claim, you'll need to be on your toes should they do so. In that context, should you receive a Letter Of/Before Claim from the PPC's solicitors, or a County Court Claim via the Northampton CNBC, come back to this thread for further advice. 

In the above context, should you change address at any time in the next 6 years, you must inform the PPC of your new address, you don't want any PPC correspondence, especially a court claim, going to a former address - the root cause of many a CCJ.

abercombine24

Is my next step for my parent to contact the PPC and inform them I am the driver, just so it's on the record and they send anything within the 6 years to me instead of my parent? I guess I would contact them by emails mentioning the reference number.

Gr1pr

If your parents don't want the hassle of solicitor letters or a court claim, then as long as you are happy to take the flak, yes they should inform NPE , because it would be too late after any court claim is issued 

abercombine24

Gr1pr said:

If your parents don't want the hassle of solicitor letters or a court claim, then as long as you are happy to take the flak, yes they should inform NPE , because it would be too late after any court claim is issued 

Thanks.

Does it matter how they phrase it so it doesn't somehow acknowledge that I accept the NPE fine but just acknowledge that I was the driver at the time? I assume I leave the dispute part for court.