Planning permission installation of side window on 1st floor.

savit4l8er

ThisIsWeird said:

Hoenir said:

From your neighbours perspective they will want their own privacy as well. Two sets of frosted glass between the rooms is more than adequate to block any public view. 

Depending on the opener, if it has one. And privacy is almost always more compromised at the lower level.

That's right, it's a bit like when is a door not a door in this case. 

savit4l8er

Doozergirl said:

To go back to a previous question of yours.  The planning department write the planning legislation for the local authority and they have professional qualifications to prove that they understand the national ones.  

When they get a planning application, they measure it to see if it complies with national
and local planning legislation.  A first floor side window, obscured, but opening is about Day 1 of planning school.  They don't need you to tell them that your privacy could be affected - they live and breathe this stuff every day.  Their decisions are based on the rules, not on whether Mrs Johnson has an opinion.  

At what point does the planning officer make their decision about whether it complies? They put up notices to make neighbours aware with a final date for comments, do they do this regardless or if they believe the application complies?

Genuinely,  if it doesn't matter that Mrs Johnson has an opinion, why are they asking?

Just trying to understand the process of which to a layman, you appear very informed.

Doozergirl

savit4l8er said:

Doozergirl said:

savit4l8er said:

@ThisIsWeird

Thank you again, that's what I intend to do, I will make a call and find out. I'm a bit surprised they would attempt to do this with an opening window but if they go in stronger, I suppose they can look as though they have been accommodating by changing to non opening. I'm sure I'm not the only person in the land that wants to protect an existing arrangement but it seems some couldn't care less, until it happens to them. 😉
Thank you for your help, much appreciated, all of it. 

To go back to a previous question of yours.  The planning department write the planning legislation for the local authority and they have professional qualifications to prove that they understand the national ones.  

When they get a planning application, they measure it to see if it complies with national
and local planning legislation.  A first floor side window, obscured, but opening is about Day 1 of planning school.  They don't need you to tell them that your privacy could be affected - they live and breathe this stuff every day.  Their decisions are based on the rules, not on whether Mrs Johnson has an opinion.  

As for people who "couldn't care less until it happens to them".   Some of them have had to negotiate planning legislation and local authorities for 25 years and speak from that experience.  

FWIW, I also live next door to a brand new cul de sac of six houses, the nearest one being 2m from one side of my house.  It used to be my neighbour's garden.  

It's very easy to listen to people with little experience but who habitually agree with every single OP and recommending legal protection on their home insurance.  They make you feel good and it comes from a place of kindness, but it doesn't come time served knowledge or experience.  

At what point does the planning officer make their decision about whether it complies? They put up notices to make neighbours aware with a final date for comments, do they do this regardless or if they believe the application complies?

Genuinely,  if it doesn't matter that Mrs Johnson has an opinion, why are they asking?

Just trying to understand the process of which to a layman, you appear very informed.  I will add, I wouldn't rely on anyone I don't know on a forum but it can help.

People are always given an opportunity to comment.  Officers cannot reject a compliant application because it receives objections. If they reject an application on anything other than planning criteria it can be appealed and costs awarded to the applicant if it subsequently succeeds.  

The planning system in this country is a bit bizarre.  I know about it, I don't really understand why it operates the way it does.   

Planning can become a democratic process with local councillors (who are not qualified to make decisions) voting on decisions if something proves to be locally contentious and attracts many opinions. They still shouldn't be rejecting on anything other than the project not meeting planning criteria. 

One person objecting to one tiny request that sits just outside of permitted development isn't going to kickstart the democratic part of planning.   The officer already knows that they need to assess the impact on neighbours amenity and I would trust them to do that objectively.  

Section62

savit4l8er said:

I expect the PO to be aware of these things accepting they are correct.

The planning officer should be qualified and know what they are doing, but they won't necessarily know about your window unless the applicant includes it in the submitted documents.

In the old days the planning officer would do a site visit in almost every case, but these days it is typical for them to ask the applicant to submit photos, which the officer will look at alongside streetview, and will never visit the site.  The photos won't necessarily show every detail, and an applicant may be tempted to take them from a position which 'helps' them get the consent.

Doozergirl is right about the planning process, but other than the neighbour finding out you've made a comment, there's not much to be lost by submitting your comments and making the point about your window and a wish that the neighbour's new window is done in a way which protects your privacy as far as reasonable.

The planning officer has to consider all comments and representations, but will do so against all the other relevant planning considerations.  Comments from neighbours might prompt the officer to take a closer look at a particular issue, or give them reassurance that something won't be a problem for the neighbours (in the case of supporting comments).

Once consent has been given there is not a great deal neighbours can do about it, even if the applicant starts deviating from the plans.  This is one reason why it can be worth making representations on an application because if the planning officer overlooks something important then the only sensible recourse for anyone adversely affected is to make a complaint to the Ombudsman.  The Ombudsman could potentially award compensation if they find there was maladministration.  It is much easier to demonstrate maladministration if you've submitted representations on a specific point during the application process, rather than complaining that the officer should have known (from training and experience) that (say) inserting a new window would have an adverse impact on you.

savit4l8er

@Section62

That's extremely helpful and makes good sense. 

This part.

The planning officer has to consider all comments and representations, but will do so against all the other relevant planning considerations.  Comments from neighbours might prompt the officer to take a closer look at a particular issue, or give them reassurance that something won't be a problem for the neighbours (in the case of supporting comments).

I don't think there is much to be lost by making a comment on the window, it's not as if I am objecting to the whole job. It's relatively minor considering everything else.


I really appreciate the time you have taken to note all that down. 

I will see how my call goes but do feel something in writing would be more solid if ever needed.

Thank you. 

Slinky

FreeBear said:

Something like this acceptable ?

Frosted glass, with a small top opener. Too high of the ground for most people to peer out of, and the frosting just renders anything as a blob.

This is what we have in our ensuite which is on the side of the house, which looks out onto ours and our adjoining neighbour's garage roofs, and the side wall of their house which has no windows. We had to have a top opener with a minimum height above floor level to 'prevent overlooking'. The only things we could possibly overlook are things we can already see from our front and rear windows.

Other houses down the street built in the 1960s have large landing windows with clear glass in that directly face each other. Obviously planning rules have changed since then.

savit4l8er

@Slinky

This is exactly the sort of "help" I wanted.  It might not follow that all planning sections work the same but it definitely gives something to work from rather than just accepting whatever happens will happen. 
Window to window, albeit on different floors is just 5m, then there is the path and part of the back patio overlooked. A normal window open obscure glazed or not will leave a gap at the hinged side too, you can look straight out of that across, up or down. Similar to that of your window at the top but that's far less of an issue. 

Thank you for your input. 

FreeBear

Slinky said: Other houses down the street built in the 1960s have large landing windows with clear glass in that directly face each other. Obviously planning rules have changed since then.

Current rules for replacement windows says that if you have obscured glass in a side window, the replacement must also be obscured. If it is plain glass, you have the choice to stick with plain, or go with obscured.

Slinky

FreeBear said:

Slinky said: Other houses down the street built in the 1960s have large landing windows with clear glass in that directly face each other. Obviously planning rules have changed since then.

Current rules for replacement windows says that if you have obscured glass in a side window, the replacement must also be obscured. If it is plain glass, you have the choice to stick with plain, or go with obscured.

Yes our ensuite is a recent addition. We would have liked a side opening window, but knew it wasn't even worth applying for. It came back with the conditions about the height above the floor. It also said category 3 obscured glass. We actually have category 2, but building control signed it off anyway without comment.

savit4l8er

Update. I rang planning. The window was to be fully opening on the application. I discussed my concerns. I didn't object publicly, instead after much research, decided there was a reasonable chance the window would not be allowed and I had planted the seed in that the planning officer was now fully aware and appreciated the situation.  The result, the window would be overlooking amenity space and must be obscured top opening only with a condition added, it must be for the lifetime of the development. FWIW, other aspects of the application were declined with regard to over shadowing. In the end, although the noise will be a pain, the extension creates a more private area for some of our garden so it's a win win really. 

Thank you to all those who tried to help.