When buying a car from a ltd (non dealer) company

Phoenix72

DullGreyGuy said:

Phoenix72 said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Phoenix72 said:

As the owner is not necessarily the registered keeper then is that not a factor? How would one know if the car had been used as a business asset?

How would the seller know if the buyer is buying it for their business or their love of motorcross? 

Ultimately the court would decide if the CRA applied to the contract or not depending on the evidence presented by both parties. This would require the seller to be deemed a Trader and the buyer a Consumer as stipulated in the legislation. 


It's who the seller is that matters, not the owner. A seller may not necessarily be the owner of the goods. When the Mrs was selling her creations it was on a sale or return basis so the sellers (two local shops) didnt hold the title of the goods when they were selling them but were authorised to sell them. If you are selling on behalf of someone else then you are more likely to be considered a trader but again not always... plenty sell their kids toys on their eBay account. 

So, if the director of the company sells it as an individual and they are the owner then not a trader?

Why dont we stick the scenario the OP has given rather than look at all other possible permutations... the OP states the seller is a limited company. 

Not sure what selling toys on e-bay has to do with it, but yeah lets stick to the OP's question

tacpot12

Because the CRA 2015 defines a trader as someone who is acting for "purposes relating to that person’s trade, business, craft or profession" I think that it must be infered that it means business people of all sorts, not just someone whose trade is selling cars. 

Selling cars is not a craft (in the way that bricklaying or plumbing is a craft), nor is it a professional (in the way that being a solicitor, architect, or surveyor is a profession; there is not professional body that oversees car dealers), thus I would say that the law is clearly saying that anyone whose business owns a vehicle is subject to the CRA 2015 if they sell it to a private individual.

born_again

premiumz said:

Hi,

I'm looking at buying a car from a ltd company. It's not a car dealership.
Do you have any consumer rights when buying a car that's been registered in a ltd company's name or does that only apply to actual car dealers?

Is this pretty much the same as buying from an individual?

Just wanted to check on this!

Cheers

So to clear some points up.
Just who is selling the car?
The company or a employee, director of said company?
Who is stated as registered keeper on V5, as if bought by company, there may be VAT to pay

premiumz

born_again said:

premiumz said:

Hi,

I'm looking at buying a car from a ltd company. It's not a car dealership.
Do you have any consumer rights when buying a car that's been registered in a ltd company's name or does that only apply to actual car dealers?

Is this pretty much the same as buying from an individual?

Just wanted to check on this!

Cheers

So to clear some points up.
Just who is selling the car?
The company or a employee, director of said company?
Who is stated as registered keeper on V5, as if bought by company, there may be VAT to pay

On the V5 under registered keeper is "company name ltd".

All invoices/services that the vehicle has had done at the main dealership has the directors name and company name underneath it. Not sure why that is as the registered owner has only the company name on it. The guy I saw that showed me the vehicle is the director of the company. So I have met him in person.

They have not mentioned VAT to me at all. We have been negotiating a price. Not once was VAT mentioned in person or on the listing.

That's pretty much where it's at right now.

Ectophile

tacpot12 said:

Because the CRA 2015 defines a trader as someone who is acting for "purposes relating to that person’s trade, business, craft or profession" I think that it must be infered that it means business people of all sorts, not just someone whose trade is selling cars. 

Selling cars is not a craft (in the way that bricklaying or plumbing is a craft), nor is it a professional (in the way that being a solicitor, architect, or surveyor is a profession; there is not professional body that oversees car dealers), thus I would say that the law is clearly saying that anyone whose business owns a vehicle is subject to the CRA 2015 if they sell it to a private individual.

And what about the words "trade" and "business", which you seem to have ignored?

mybestattempt

tacpot12 said:

Because the CRA 2015 defines a trader as someone who is acting for "purposes relating to that person’s trade, business, craft or profession" I think that it must be infered that it means business people of all sorts, not just someone whose trade is selling cars. 

Selling cars is not a craft (in the way that bricklaying or plumbing is a craft), nor is it a professional (in the way that being a solicitor, architect, or surveyor is a profession; there is not professional body that oversees car dealers), thus I would say that the law is clearly saying that anyone whose business owns a vehicle is subject to the CRA 2015 if they sell it to a private individual.

I'm afraid I don't agree with that interpretation. 

The nature of a trade, business etc. establishes it's purposes whether it operates as a limited company, partnership or sole trader. 

The company here is not a car dealer, the purpose of it's business is not selling cars for profit.

The CRA would not apply to the sale of the company car to the OP.

DullGreyGuy

mybestattempt said:

tacpot12 said:

Because the CRA 2015 defines a trader as someone who is acting for "purposes relating to that person’s trade, business, craft or profession" I think that it must be infered that it means business people of all sorts, not just someone whose trade is selling cars. 

Selling cars is not a craft (in the way that bricklaying or plumbing is a craft), nor is it a professional (in the way that being a solicitor, architect, or surveyor is a profession; there is not professional body that oversees car dealers), thus I would say that the law is clearly saying that anyone whose business owns a vehicle is subject to the CRA 2015 if they sell it to a private individual.

I'm afraid I don't agree with that interpretation. 

The nature of a trade, business etc. establishes it's purposes whether it operates as a limited company, partnership or sole trader. 

The company here is not a car dealer, the purpose of it's business is not selling cars for profit.

The CRA would not apply to the sale of the company car to the OP.

Fully accept I'm not a lawyer nor can I produce case law one way or the other however it seems very odd that the consumer protection sites and law firms writing articles on the matter state that the CRA applies to B2C relationships and not B2B. If there was such a massive exception that companies selling their own assets other than stock are not covered that you'd expect at least one website to have such a warning on it but having looked at over a dozen not a single one has. 

mybestattempt

I agree there was nothing I could see on any websites which I was surprised by, nor could I find any caselaw.

However, I think it the first thing to be addressed by a judge in any claim would be whether the sale was for the purpose of the trade if it was defended on the basis that the purpose of the business was  "not trading as a dealer in the asset sold as it was not trading stock".

DullGreyGuy

mybestattempt said:

I agree there was nothing I could see on any websites which I was surprised by, nor could I find any caselaw.

However, I think it the first thing to be addressed by a judge in any claim would be whether the sale was for the purpose of the trade if it was defended on the basis that the purpose of the business was  "not trading as a dealer in the asset sold as it was not trading stock".

But the definition isn't just trade, its "trade, business, craft or profession".. the "or" is important to indicate it doesn't have to tick all the boxes. It may not be their trade to sell cars but it is their business to liquidate their assets 

Go back to the other websites that say transactions are B2B, B2C or C2C with only the middle one being covered by the CRA. No one is suggesting the OP is a business so we can ignore B2B but a Business by its definition cannot be a Consumer hence no cover in the CRA or CCA etc. So having established this is a B2C transaction it falls in the scope. 

mybestattempt

Sorry I don't agree.

After I sell the car I use in my business to my neighbour's son for his private use, I would defend any claim he made under CRA 2015 on the basis my trade is not selling cars.