Economy 7 and Smartmeter

Ferretsox

The switches next to the Aga.

lohr500

Thanks for the photos. It looks like the off-peak feed from the meter which goes to the smaller switch with the black and blue switches, then goes to the separate small consumer unit at the top right.
That is where I think the breaker will be for the AGA off peak trigger signal wire. Is the black switch in that box labelled with anything? 

The switch you mention which is next to the Aga. Just so I am sure that there isn't another timer involved, please could you upload a photo of that switch. If I am correct, I think this will just be a simple on/off switch to break the feed from the off-peak trigger wiring coming from the smaller consumer unit by the meter. If it is a timer switch of some type, then I need to reconsider my thinking. 

And good to hear that the Aga will partially charge on peak rate, although as you say, expensive to do so and it won't get to the usual temperature. Our 30Amp Aga works exactly the same. 

The fact that electricity is being recorded on Rate 2 is also a good sign (assuming it is recording on Rate 1 during the day). This means that the meter is switching over at some point to off peak rate during the 24 hour cycle.

Have you been able to see when the meter switches over to the off peak rate and then back to peak? Hopefully you will be getting the 7 hours of Economy 7, but with the 49 minute difference to what you are expecting. 

If you are sure that the meter is switching over for some or all of the 7 hours, then the problem is likely to be one of three things .

Either the electrical contactor switch in the meter has failed, or is not being activated when the meter switches to the off-peak rate. So no electricity is reaching the small fusebox..

Or there is a fault with the off-peak wiring somewhere between that smaller fuse box and the Aga. 

Or the Aga controller has failed and is not recognising the trigger signal.

To test the Aga trigger signal, having isolated the proper trigger feed wire, your Aga engineer should be able to bridge the 30 Amp permanent live feed on the Aga controller circuit board to the trigger feed connection.
Doing so, should cause the Aga to start charging because it will think it is now on off-peak rate. 
If it does start charging, then at least your Aga controller is OK. (Expensive to repair or replace, especially if it is an early Mk1 30 Amp Aga).
 
When the electrician checked the Aga, did he/she establish if the off peak trigger wiring was live during the off peak period?

Final thought. Does the switch near the Aga have a light on it which illuminates during the off-peak period? 
If the light isn't coming on during the off-peak period, then again this would point to either a failure of the smart meter contactor switching, or a fault in the wiring upstream from the meter.

Final suggestion : If the testing/investigation determines that the meter is switching over to Economy 7, but not activating the 5th wire circuit AND EDF cannot get out to replace it quickly, there is a temporary solution to get you up and running.

Ask a competent electrician to install a stand alone timer next to the Aga, powered from the permanent 30 Amp live feed to the Aga. Then use the timer to provide the switched 5 Amp signal during the hours when your existing smart meter switches to Economy 7. This solution works fine but is not ideal (for a different reason, it is how I control our Aga). You have to be careful to make sure that the timer clock stays aligned with the meter clock and that the off peak time doesn't drift on the meter. Also, you have to be careful when the clocks change between GMT & BST, depending on if the timer and/or smart meter adjust for the hour change.

Sorry for the lengthy reply, but hopefully it makes sense.

lohr500

Sorry, just seen the photo of the switches next to the Aga. Neither of those is a timer switch. The smaller one with the fuse will almost certainly be the feed for the off-peak trigger, wired back to that smaller consumer unit by your meter.
The larger switch will be a 30 Amp rated unit which disconnects the permanent live feed to the Aga.

Unfortunately there is no indicator light on the small square switch. 

As per my lengthy previous reply, did your electrician check to see if power was arriving at that square switch during the off-peak period?

Ferretsox

lohr500 said:

Sorry, just seen the photo of the switches next to the Aga. Neither of those is a timer switch. The smaller one with the fuse will almost certainly be the feed for the off-peak trigger, wired back to that smaller consumer unit by your meter.
The larger switch will be a 30 Amp rated unit which disconnects the permanent live feed to the Aga.

Unfortunately there is no indicator light on the small square switch. 

As per my lengthy previous reply, did your electrician check to see if power was arriving at that square switch during the off-peak period?

lohr500 said:

Sorry, just seen the photo of the switches next to the Aga. Neither of those is a timer switch. The smaller one with the fuse will almost certainly be the feed for the off-peak trigger, wired back to that smaller consumer unit by your meter.
The larger switch will be a 30 Amp rated unit which disconnects the permanent live feed to the Aga.

Unfortunately there is no indicator light on the small square switch. 

As per my lengthy previous reply, did your electrician check to see if power was arriving at that square switch during the off-peak period?

Thanks. No, the electrician did not test the small switch during the off peak period. But the Aga engineer test showed a very low reading from the 5amp circuit between terminals  inside the Aga during the peak period which he said was normal, and I presumed meant that the circuit was intact? 

Thank you for the advice about a timer.

Scot_39

That's a 5 port economy 7 meter with I would guess based on other designs -  the brown live marked 5 the restricted time supply - only powered on at off peak times.

It looks like your main consumer unit is split with 2 rcds - but cannot read ratings or labels.

 in my case my consumer unit is split for what was 3 - inc 2 rts meter switched circuits under rts,  now just 1+1 switched by e10 meter, was normal circuits, restricted off peak heating and restricted off peak hot water - e10 feeds last 2 in parallel from henley in meter cabinet via 3 live and 1 neutral isolator switches to same CU 3 tails to same 3 cu isolators.


The blue brown switch brown 5 tail feeds into looks like a simple isolator switch  live and neutral to allow easy working on consumer side wiring.

But cannot see where its outputs go.

What if any label is on the rcd in the in the small consumer unit top right as that and the 5 live isolator look like possible additions  (I.e. there's no equivalent isolator switch for 24/7 live from meter - grey 4 etc)

Any chance that's driving the mysterious 5A off peak at AGA.

Do you have a link on their site to the AGA device ?

lohr500

To keep this simple, from what you have said previously, the Aga was charging correctly after the smart meter was installed, although with a 40 min shift in the off peak times.

And you can see that the meter is still recording usage on the Rate 2 register during the off peak period.

So either the Aga controller has failed, or the off peak electricity fro wire 5 on the smart meter is not reaching the Aga during the off peak window.

.The simplest way to determine which would be to get a competent person to check for a live feed on the Aga off peak connector pin at some point when the smart meter is registering usage on the off peak rate.

If there is power at the pin during the off peak period, then the fault is with the controller.
As I mentioned previously the controller can also be tested by bridging the main 30 amp feed pin on the controller to the off peak signal pin.

Once the controller has been ruled out, then it has to be an issue with the off peak supply. Any competent electrician should be able to check for continuity from the trigger wire at the Aga, back to the off peak fuse box and the 100 amp switch on your meter board.

If it's not the Aga controller, or the wiring leading to it from the meter board, then it's a faulty smart meter which is EDFs responsibility to rectify. They should be able to replace it with another 5 wire smart meter operating in dumb mode to support Economy 7.

Scot_39

It might be worth investing in a non contact voltage detection pen for a quick initial check if suspect the E7 off peak switching.

They start remarkably cheaply these days - found one as little as £4 on quick google at one UK discount chain.

Other places start more like a tenner.

Probably easier to get a hold of for a quick check of E7 live - and to avoid need for working at awkward times of course some meters can actually force the E7 restricted supply to switch temporarily with a specific menu or key sequence.

Looks like the ltron has menu items - 'ALCS test' and 'boost' mode from the list here on page 31

https://www.smartme.co.uk/documents/payg_smart_meter_sept_2022.pdf

If want to do a test at normal times.

Boost might be upto 1 hour - but you could always use the aga switches.

lohr500

Scot_39 said:

It might be worth investing in a non contact voltage detection pen for a quick initial check if suspect the E7 off peak switching.

They start remarkably cheaply these days - found one as little as £4 on quick google at one UK discount chain.

Other places start more like a tenner.

Probably easier to get a hold of for a quick check of E7 live - and to avoid need for working at awkward times of course some meters can actually force the E7 restricted supply to switch temporarily with a specific menu or key sequence.

Looks like the ltron has menu items - 'ALCS test' and 'boost' mode from the list here on page 31

https://www.smartme.co.uk/documents/payg_smart_meter_sept_2022.pdf

If want to do a test at normal times.

Boost might be upto 1 hour - but you could always use the aga switches.

Those are good suggestions. 

Buying a voltage detection pen would probably work cheaper than getting an electrician to test outside of normal working hours. 

And if the OP can find the menu option on the smart meter to trigger the ALCS test then as you say, he/she can carry out the test during the day time.

Ferretsox

time.

Hi
thank you for your advice.
i got a voltage detection pen yesterday and this morning (off peak) tested the cables coming from the Smartmeter. The live brown wire from terminal  5 was totally dead. The other live wires from the Smartmeter showed up as live. 

As a result of your help and the help of others who have kindly contributed to this thread, I can now fully evidence the need for a replacement meter. 

Thanks everyone!

lohr500

A good result. Hopefully EDF will get their act together and arrange for a replacement meter to be fitted ASAP.

I'm not sure if you can claim anything for the extra peak rate electricity your Aga will have used whilst the off peak circuit has been faulty.

Did you switch the Aga off when you realised it wasn't charging on off-peak, and how long was it before you noticed the fault?