Argos, click and collect. Distance sale or not?

jambomakaveli

So that page, on argos, that refers to the CCR, states you have 14 days, and then literally after that says that they have simplified it, and made it within 30 days of COLLECTION or delivery. 

So again, I just can’t get my head around it all. But obviously I’m just the consumer, so when they say no, aside going to court, that’s the end of that and the big company triumphs again. 

Undervalued

jambomakaveli said:

So that page, on argos, that refers to the CCR, states you have 14 days, and then literally after that says that they have simplified it, and made it within 30 days of COLLECTION or delivery. 

So again, I just can’t get my head around it all. But obviously I’m just the consumer, so when they say no, aside going to court, that’s the end of that and the big company triumphs again. 

That last sentence would be just as true if you were dealing with a tiny one man business!

jambomakaveli

Undervalued said:

jambomakaveli said:

So that page, on argos, that refers to the CCR, states you have 14 days, and then literally after that says that they have simplified it, and made it within 30 days of COLLECTION or delivery. 

So again, I just can’t get my head around it all. But obviously I’m just the consumer, so when they say no, aside going to court, that’s the end of that and the big company triumphs again. 

That last sentence would be just as true if you were dealing with a tiny one man business!

I can absolutely understand your point, it’s still one side against another, but the point I was trying to make was the fact that argos going to court, paying costs etc is nothing, but for the average joe, it absolutely is. I’m sure a lot of the time that’s why they take the stance of just telling you no, because they presume you won’t take it further. 

A one man business, although still capable of going g to court etc, would have nowhere near the unlimited funds a big company do to throw at it. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Alderbank said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

The terms on Argos are confusing...as they don't appear to mention Click and Collect...

I agree they are confusing but they do mention Click & Collect.

You quote term 2.3 in their Terms and Conditions. However, term 4.5, a little further down the same page, says

4.5 Title to any products you order on this website shall pass to you on delivery of the products provided that you have placed your order in accordance with these terms and conditions, we have processed your order, and received payment in full for the products. For click and collect orders, the title to products shall pass to you once the goods, ordered in accordance with these terms and conditions, have been handed over to you in store.

Also interesting is their web page 'What are my Consumer Contract Regulation Rights?'
https://help.argos.co.uk/help/technical/what-are-my-consumer-contract-regulation-rights/72678

This page seems to cautiously conflate the CCR rights to cancel with Argos's own returns policy.  I think it is confusing.

Thanks @Alderbank

Passing of title is different, that's when the actual ownership of goods passes to you and is covered by the old Sale of goods Act if not stated in the contract so would wouldn't affect the point of the contract being "concluded" I don't think. 

pinkshoes said:

The OP had the opportunity to examine it in the store when collecting which would form the bit under the distance sale. If they didn't like what they saw, then they could return it for a refund. e.g. they could handle it the same way they would in any other store and examine it, but not turn it on.

By taking it home, that would be acceptance of the goods.

There isn't any concept of acceptance under the CCRs or the CRA  

Whilst the regs are no doubt in place for the reason of not having a chance to look at them, the 3 types are contract aren't defined by whether or not that has happened so it doesn't have any bearing  

jambomakaveli

Sooooo, in layman’s terms…. Am I done for? 😂

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

jambomakaveli said:

Sooooo, in layman’s terms…. Am I done for? 😂

I really don't know OP.

I don't think you are going to get far with Argos CS, sorry meant to give a link earlier:

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/

I would see what they say, their advice is not in-depth and like ours is free so not necessarily always correct but worth a 5 min chat.

Beyond that you are better off contacting their head office to see what their actual position is regarding distance sales.  

Kim_13

jambomakaveli said:

eskbanker said:

jambomakaveli said:

Don’t really know where to go with it now. 

Just to be clear, are you hoping that it'll be classified as a distance sale specifically because you want to cancel the contract (for a change of mind), as opposed to the item being faulty (which would open up other potential remedies)?

I took the phone back to the store the very next day, it genuinely was switching itself off and on, and I asked for a refund as I thought it to be faulty. They flat out refused and said I’d have to drive 40 miles to an Apple Store for a genius report, or I could have it sent away for them to diagnose a fault, as they couldn’t see a fault from testing it in store. 

There was no way I was going to agree to either of those, so I then pursued a refund under the distance selling regulations, which as of today has been formally denied by email from the customer care team, who say it’s not a distance sale. 

They would be correct in declining a return as the phone had been turned on. The regulations are based on you being able to see the product in store, but not turn it on/use it, so that is what you are allowed to do while retaining the right to return when you complete the purchase online. As you’ve done something that would not be allowed in store, there is no right to return (but you can look into the right to reject for faulty goods.) If they don’t want returns of opened, unused products, then they need to insist that items can only be reserved online and paid for in store (which would make it an on premises sale and not a distance one.) It is the point of money changing hands that is critical, as there can be no contract formed without payment, so the contract is formed at that point. They cannot override a customer’s statutory rights with their terms.

I suspect the “you’ve collected your order” email is triggered the moment that the person serving you enters your FT collection number onto the system, and that you wouldn’t in reality have a window to get them to open the box and take it back for a refund. But no point in wasting energy on challenging their attempting to use this to designate an on-premises sale when the right to return has been lost by turning the phone on. 

visidigi

jambomakaveli said:

eskbanker said:

jambomakaveli said:

Don’t really know where to go with it now. 

Just to be clear, are you hoping that it'll be classified as a distance sale specifically because you want to cancel the contract (for a change of mind), as opposed to the item being faulty (which would open up other potential remedies)?

I took the phone back to the store the very next day, it genuinely was switching itself off and on, and I asked for a refund as I thought it to be faulty. They flat out refused and said I’d have to drive 40 miles to an Apple Store for a genius report, or I could have it sent away for them to diagnose a fault, as they couldn’t see a fault from testing it in store. 

There was no way I was going to agree to either of those, so I then pursued a refund under the distance selling regulations, which as of today has been formally denied by email from the customer care team, who say it’s not a distance sale. 

So you couldn't show the store the fault you had and they couldn't replicate it either? 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Kim_13 said:

jambomakaveli said:

eskbanker said:

jambomakaveli said:

Don’t really know where to go with it now. 

Just to be clear, are you hoping that it'll be classified as a distance sale specifically because you want to cancel the contract (for a change of mind), as opposed to the item being faulty (which would open up other potential remedies)?

I took the phone back to the store the very next day, it genuinely was switching itself off and on, and I asked for a refund as I thought it to be faulty. They flat out refused and said I’d have to drive 40 miles to an Apple Store for a genius report, or I could have it sent away for them to diagnose a fault, as they couldn’t see a fault from testing it in store. 

There was no way I was going to agree to either of those, so I then pursued a refund under the distance selling regulations, which as of today has been formally denied by email from the customer care team, who say it’s not a distance sale. 

They would be correct in declining a return as the phone had been turned on. The regulations are based on you being able to see the product in store, but not turn it on/use it, so that is what you are allowed to do while retaining the right to return when you complete the purchase online. As you’ve done something that would not be allowed in store, there is no right to return (but you can look into the right to reject for faulty goods.) If they don’t want returns of opened, unused products, then they need to insist that items can only be reserved online and paid for in store (which would make it an on premises sale and not a distance one.) It is the point of money changing hands that is critical, as there can be no contract formed without payment, so the contract is formed at that point. They cannot override a customer’s statutory rights with their terms.

@Kim_13 this isn't correct  

Where the consumer's handling goes beyond what is necessary to establish the nature and characteristics of the goods, typically what's permitted in store, the consumer still has the right of cancellation however the trader may make a deduction for any diminished value suffered as a result. That right of deduction only applies where the trader complies with providing the required information as per paragraph (l) of Schedule 2 of the CCRs (which is the rights on cancellation). 

Simply put using a phone doesn't void the right of cancellation, only the limits of application 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/28

void that right.

As well the situations the entire regulations don't apply to:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/6

Regarding payment, many websites take payment upon the customer ordering but stipulate the contract is formed upon dispatch by acceptance occurring at that point. 

A contract requires, offer, consideration, acceptance. 

The consideration part is the benefit each party will receive under the contract, AFAIK that just has to be the agreement of money, or whatever, rather than the actual exchange @Okell might be able to clarify better, but either way it requires that final point of acceptance for a contract to be formed. 

I do believe without terms stating otherwise the exchange of money could be taken as acceptance but it seems terms can delay the point of acceptance until a certain action (such as dispatch) has occurred. 

What we don't know is whether terms can delay acceptance until a different action (collection of the goods) is something that can be stipulated, and if it is Argos certainly haven't made their terms clear for non-FastTrack C&C orders.

jambomakaveli

no, upon setting it up, and using apps etc, it would just switch itself off and back on. It wasn’t doing any updates etc, that had already been done. This would be when just scrolling through safari, or Facebook for example. 

They used the phone for a few minutes in store and then said because they couldn’t see it, I’d have to drive 40 miles to an Apple Store for a genius report, or they send it away and it could take up to a month. 

Thats the reason why I then looked into returning under the distance selling regulation.