Expecting a massive price uplift - radiator install

ThisIsWeird

Swasterix said:

ThisIsWeird said:

5) numerous people have told me that they find the quality of work carried out by your plumbers is unacceptable,

To be fair to them OP has stated that they were unhappy to do it like that, and he told them he’s “not bothered how it looks”. That’s on OP unfortunately. Everything else though, yeah. 

Thanks. Yes, I remember that being said.
I took that as the OP suggesting that 'how it looks isn't a priority - cost more so', and surface-run pipes would be ok, for example.
I think the standard of work actually carried out, tho', is on a different level of incompetence and lack of care, and is unnecessarily and unacceptably poor; there are numerous DIYers on here who would undoubtedly have carried out a far superior job, and some within 2 hours too, I suspect. The vast majority of professional plumbers would certainly have done so, and would simply have too much professional integrity to leave a job looking like that. The fact that there were two plumbers in attendance speaks even more of a lack of shame - or an astonishing lack of skill and competence. 
I think it should be seen as a statement of the bleedin' obvious that, "how it looks is not so important" should not give carte blanche. The problem with that job is, a far superior run could have been carried out using similar parts and in the same time interval, and would have been by the overwhelming majority of other plumbers. 
Any suggestions by the OP to "seek further opinion by posting this on FB" should elicit a terrified response by the boss. 
It's a shocking job, it really is.

breaking_free

Okey dokey, I've sent a very polite email restating what I've said here and most importantly including pictures 

Now we'll have to wait and see what happens. Thanks everyone for your input thus far.

Swasterix

ThisIsWeird said:

Swasterix said:

ThisIsWeird said:

5) numerous people have told me that they find the quality of work carried out by your plumbers is unacceptable,

To be fair to them OP has stated that they were unhappy to do it like that, and he told them he’s “not bothered how it looks”. That’s on OP unfortunately. Everything else though, yeah. 

Thanks. Yes, I remember that being said.
I took that as the OP suggesting that 'how it looks isn't a priority - cost more so', and surface-run pipes would be ok, for example.
I think the standard of work actually carried out, tho', is on a different level of incompetence and lack of care, and is unnecessarily and unacceptably poor; there are numerous DIYers on here who would undoubtedly have carried out a far superior job, and some within 2 hours too, I suspect. The vast majority of professional plumbers would certainly have done so, and would simply have too much professional integrity to leave a job looking like that. The fact that there were two plumbers in attendance speaks even more of a lack of shame - or an astonishing lack of skill and competence. 
I think it should be seen as a statement of the bleedin' obvious that, "how it looks is not so important" should not give carte blanche. The problem with that job is, a far superior run could have been carried out using similar parts and in the same time interval, and would have been by the overwhelming majority of other plumbers. 
Any suggestions by the OP to "seek further opinion by posting this on FB" should elicit a terrified response by the boss. 
It's a shocking job, it really is.

Agree with what you’re saying to a degree. However if you’re telling somebody “I don’t care how it looks”, then you kinda have given them carte blanche to run it how they please. 

Is the job acceptable? Absolutely not. It’s one of the worst examples I’ve seen on here from memory. It looks rubbish. It is functional though so has more or less met the spec. You cant tell somebody you don’t care what a job looks like and then complain about what it looks like. A learning experience for OP I guess. 

breaking_free

UPDATE

I emailed the company and stated what I've said in this thread. The last part of my email to them read as follows:

Here's how I would like to resolve this. I believe you are due some extra money for the 3 elbows and 6 inserts which I have calculated as follows (Toolstation retail price)

3 x elbows = £8.91   Product code: 86703   JG Speedfit Elbow Connector 10mm   £2.97 (inc VAT) 

6 x inserts = £2.82    Product code: 34258  JG Speedfit Pipe Insert 10mm              £0.47 (inc VAT)

I don't think I should pay for the time your guys spent buying these extra parts as I did not cause this problem; this is between the guy that specced the job and the guys that did the job. I also had to spend my own time learning how to do the rebalancing and inhibitor adding, not to mention making good the wall afterwards.

I look forward to hearing from you.

This is their reply today.

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, we have revised your invoice and have adjusted this accordingly for you - this will be sent over separately.

Please accept our sincere apologies as this is not how we would usually carry out business. We will be speaking with the first engineer who attended to ensure that this does not happen again.

ORIGINAL INVOICE

NEW INVOICE

They're still charging me for an extra hour and a half of labour (remember that the original quote - not estimate - was for 2 hours' labour in total). Two blokes took 5 hours to produce the finished result that you've already seen in previous photos, which we've all agreed is far from a good job.

I do NOT want to pay them for the extra 1 and a half hours as it is not what was quoted: I do not feel responsible for any of the extra time taken, particularly as the finished result is so poor AND I had to make good the wall, add inhibitor and rebalance the system because that extra 3 hours didn't even include these basic things!

So I'll ask your advice again: how would you politely word an email to them? I want them to stick to the original quote plus add a bit on for the additional fittings, which they've priced up at £12 on the invoice.

ThisIsWeird

What was the original quote? In total? Parts and labour.

breaking_free

Original quote was £120 for two hours' labour including VAT.
All parts were to be supplied by me. I was given a shopping list of parts to buy (radiator, freeze kit, specified number of elbows and Ts, 10mm pipe). No details of what brand, just 10mm pipe and fittings to match the existing system.

ThisIsWeird

Was that a written quote?
Anyhoo, I'd send them a cheque for £120 + £12 as full and final payment,  again briefly listing all the reasons for this. 
The ball is then in their court to chase you for the additions. I suspect strongly that they won't - they wouldn't want to describe what has gone on in front of an adjudicator; nothing about this shows them in a good light.
Do you have LegProt?

breaking_free

Yes I do! I'd forgotten all about it so thanks for reminding me.

ThisIsWeird I think I will go down the route you suggest and will send a cheque and a letter to make it more formal.

If anybody else has suggestions please do let me know, but I think ThisIsWeird's approach is an excellent one. I am very tempted to send the company this thread as well, but it's probably not a good idea.

ThisIsWeird

breaking_free said:

Yes I do! I'd forgotten all about it so thanks for reminding me.

ThisIsWeird I think I will go down the route you suggest and will send a cheque and a letter to make it more formal.

If anybody else has suggestions please do let me know, but I think ThisIsWeird's approach is an excellent one. I am very tempted to send the company this thread as well, but it's probably not a good idea.

I wouldn't escalate the issue by sending this link, or anything else - just keep being reasonable and matter-of-fact - for the moment.

Since you do have LP, I'd call them up for advice and guidance now; this is free, and does not escalate the issue in any sense. Follow their advice. Should the company then be daft enough to threaten action against you, your LP should be there to defend you (assuming they agree you'll win...)

So, engage them now for advice, so that anything you do fits in with how they'd have wanted you to act.

Before you call them, write out - again if nec - the most succinct outline of what happened, and when. The briefest of outlines, but make sure you include all the pertinent details. In chrono order. Numbered, so you can refer any part quickly.

1) Needed additional rad fitted. 15th of March: Called X Co, the The main HE, Mr T, the boss, came out, outlined how it would be tackled, gave me a quote for 'labour-only' of £X, and a list of parts required. I did say that 'aesthetics wasn't a priority' (whatever the term you used), if that kept costs down. I was given a quote of £D for the labour, and a list of parts which I subsequently bought. This included a pipe-freezing kit to temp stop the water flow, so the pipes could be extended.

2) Fth March: Two plumbers came out, stated that my plastic pipe could not be frozen (which I now understand to be incorrect - it can), and went out to get additional parts.

etc etc

Then a list of the reasons why you consider their additional invoiced amount to be unreasonable.

'I consider the two plumbers who carried out the task to be incompetent, the actual work originally quoted for to have not been completed, and the standard of work carried out to be completely unacceptable. Nevertheless, I am still prepared to pay them the original, quoted, sum as I do have a functioning radiator.

a) They were incorrect about the option of freezing the pipe. 

b) They did not add corrosion-inhibitor to my system after taking the unnecessary option of draining the system down. This would almost certainly have lead to premature corrosion of the radiators and fittings had I not realised the situation, and purchased and added inhibitor myself.

c) They did not 'balance' the CH system afterwards, which meant that the rad initially didn't heat up correctly. I had to learn how to do this, and carry out the task myself.

d) The presentation of their work is simply shocking. I have sought the opinions of professional plumbers, DIYers, and layfolk, and their remarks are entirely consistent and unanimous (example comments attached). Furthermore, the consensus is that it would not have taken any additional work to have carried out a much less intrusive pipe run. Eg, the pipes could have been run immediately above the skirting boards, and taken directly through the wall in the corner.

e) They took a total of X hours to complete this task, with two plumbers on the job, an unreasonable amount of time.

f) The Co's boss agreed that the quality of work was substandard. Some of his comments were, ";lfdglijrlknmk;lmj", etc etc etc.. '

See what your LP says. I'd imagine they'd guide you on the correct wording, perhaps even a letter template. Should the Co reply threatening action, you tell them you (a) have £50k's worth of Leg Prot (or whatever the sum) and will defend their action, and (b) will post pics of their work on social media, including local Fb pages, "in order to seek further opinion on whether the standard of their work is acceptable..."

But, really, it ain't going to get to this.

Doozergirl

You have the upper hand here.  

I'd just pay what you think is correct and then wait to see if they do anything.  They're unlikely to start court proceedings for such a small amount. 

I wouldn't waste too much energy on letter writing etc.  The legal advice is there IF they issue court papers.  Otherwise just wait and see.