Deposit nearly two years old

Uplander1111

In July 2022 I placed a pre-order £30 deposit with a model shop in Sheffield, the balance (£100) to be paid once the model was available.  At the time they quoted delivery (as far as I can remember) as something like Q4 2022 to Q1 of 2023.  They are now quoting possible delivery as Q2 / Q3 of 2024 and say that I cannot have a refund of the deposit as their terms state this is non-refundable.  Their attitude is somewhat arrogant - "this is how this industry works ... tough if you don't like it" - that kind of thing.  I was told recently by a friend's daughter (a solicitor, but not in a relevant field) that unfair trading terms cannot be enforced, she was quite adamant on this.  The trouble being that even if this situation is the result of "unfair trading terms" they have my money.  I paid via Paypal so maybe I could open a case but I just wondered if anyone could offer a view from a position of knowledge.  It is not that I cannot afford to lose £30 but without wishing to sound pompous, it is the principle of the thing.        

sheramber

Was this crowdfunding?

sammyjammy

give trading standards a call, see what they say.

p00hsticks

sheramber said:

Was this crowdfunding?

My money's on this company
Pre-Orders – Rails of Sheffield 

Hoenir

What's the model?  The shop will have ordered a piece just for you. If you cancel the order then it'll be sitting on their shelves accumulating dust and costing them money.  That's what can be regarded as unfair. The delivery is outside of the shop's control. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Hoenir said:

What's the model?  The shop will have ordered a piece just for you. If you cancel the order then it'll be sitting on their shelves accumulating dust and costing them money.  That's what can be regarded as unfair. The delivery is outside of the shop's control. 

What does this have to with consumer rights though? The company is accepting pre-orders in an attempt to capture customers early and with that comes certain risks. They are welcome to wait until the stock is in their hand before taking money from customers if they don't wish to deal with the risks that come from delayed releases and customer cancellations. 

Delivery of goods would give the trader a chance at a second delivery timescale but going from the first 3 months of 2023 to the the middle 6 of 2024 is very unlikely to be considered reasonable (by the standards of a reasonable person) so OP can treat the contract at an end and would be due a refund of any payment made.

If this is a distance contract OP has the standard right to cancel as well. 

Sadly OP for £30 it's difficult, I think you are out of time for a Paypal claim and £30 probably isn't worth going to small claims for (the model might be released by the time you get anywhere on that front). 

On the plus side money today is worth less than it was in 2022, if they stick to the original price (which they should) it might not be a bad deal considering it's not possible to get your hands on the model anywhere until release any way.   

born_again

Uplander1111 said:

In July 2022 I placed a pre-order £30 deposit with a model shop in Sheffield, the balance (£100) to be paid once the model was available.  At the time they quoted delivery (as far as I can remember) as something like Q4 2022 to Q1 of 2023.  They are now quoting possible delivery as Q2 / Q3 of 2024 and say that I cannot have a refund of the deposit as their terms state this is non-refundable.  Their attitude is somewhat arrogant - "this is how this industry works ... tough if you don't like it" - that kind of thing.  I was told recently by a friend's daughter (a solicitor, but not in a relevant field) that unfair trading terms cannot be enforced, she was quite adamant on this.  The trouble being that even if this situation is the result of "unfair trading terms" they have my money.  I paid via Paypal so maybe I could open a case but I just wondered if anyone could offer a view from a position of knowledge.  It is not that I cannot afford to lose £30 but without wishing to sound pompous, it is the principle of the thing.        

Well outside the 180 days timescale.

Uplander1111

Firstly many apologies for posing a question and then opting out.  I bookmarked the question and thought I would get an email if anyone posted.  I am somewhat under the weather so have only just checked on the Forum itself.  I do apologise.

sheramber said:

Was this crowdfunding?

No!

sammyjammy said:

give trading standards a call, see what they say.

If they deal with ordinary folk, not sure on that but if they did say this practice is wrong it still comes down to "what can I do?"

p00hsticks said:

My money's on this company
Pre-Orders – Rails of Sheffield 

Indeed!

Hoenir said:

If you cancel the order then it'll be sitting on their shelves accumulating dust and costing them money.  That's what can be regarded as unfair. The delivery is outside of the shop's control. 

Do not agree.  I feel that after nearly two years I am not being unreasonable - they should provide a reasonable estimate (they didn't) and as sole agents for these models I would assume they do (or should) have some control.  

 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Sadly OP for £30 it's difficult, I think you are out of time for a Paypal claim and £30 probably isn't worth going to small claims for (the model might be released by the time you get anywhere on that front). 

On the plus side money today is worth less than it was in 2022, if they stick to the original price (which they should) it might not be a bad deal considering it's not possible to get your hands on the model anywhere until release any way.   

Some wise words thank you (a positive side to inflation too - that made me smile). 

==

Thanks all for taking the time to post and again ... apologies.   If I am out of time for a PP claim I think I am out of options but always good to get other views.

Hoenir

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Hoenir said:

What's the model?  The shop will have ordered a piece just for you. If you cancel the order then it'll be sitting on their shelves accumulating dust and costing them money.  That's what can be regarded as unfair. The delivery is outside of the shop's control. 

 The company is accepting pre-orders in an attempt to capture customers early and with that comes certain risks. 

Do you know this definatively or is it pure assumption ?   Any business person would look to mitigate risks that they are exposed to. Macro perspective is very different to the micro.   

Alderbank

The relevant part of their T&Cs is:

Pre-Order cancellations

You can cancel a pre-order at any time up to the arrival of the product. This can be done by contacting us.

You will not be charged and you have the right to cancel at any time.

If a deposit has been paid, this is non refundable and will not be refunded unless under certain circumstances at the company’s discretion.

I'm not too sure what a pre-order is, in legal terms. How does it differ from an order?

I suspect that this might not be a simple contract for sale of goods but actually includes a contract for services.
Perhaps the item is a limited edition eagerly awaited by collectors and enthusiasts and probably over-subscribed, so the deposit is a sort of holding fee to guarantee the OP's place in the queue when the item arrives?

OP, did you have the option to place a pre-order without paying a deposit? This seems to be implied in the T&Cs.

Whatever, that contract term that the deposit will just be kept unless under certain circumstances which are not revealed before the contract is formed and will be decided at the company's absolute discretion sounds to me to be the very model of an unfair contract term.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Hoenir said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Hoenir said:

What's the model?  The shop will have ordered a piece just for you. If you cancel the order then it'll be sitting on their shelves accumulating dust and costing them money.  That's what can be regarded as unfair. The delivery is outside of the shop's control. 

 The company is accepting pre-orders in an attempt to capture customers early and with that comes certain risks. 

Do you know this definatively or is it pure assumption ?   Any business person would look to mitigate risks that they are exposed to. Macro perspective is very different to the micro.   

I don't really understand the question since you made an assumption first to which I was responding

When you said " If you cancel the order then it'll be sitting on their shelves accumulating dust and costing them money." that assumes they either can't cancel their order with the supplier or can't sell it to someone else so that is the risk they take by doing business in a way that leaves dusty stock on their shelves. 

Perhaps they can cancel with the supplier (or haven't even ordered it yet), perhaps they have customers lined up as the supplier has sold through the release QTY, I have no idea but can respond to say if your assumption is correct that is their risk which has no bearing on whether the customer is entitled to a refund under the regs.