Imploded cylinder after plumbing work - should we claim via plumbers public liability insurance?

clairelojo

Between April 4th and 5th, we hired a plumber to undertake various tasks in our home, including removing two radiators, replacing one with a larger unit, and repairing a broken valve. This required draining the central heating system each day over the two-day period.

Leaving for a two-night family visit on Friday morning, we trusted the plumber, with whom we had a long-standing relationship and had worked on our plumbing system numerous times before, to complete the work and secure the house. Upon our return Sunday evening, we discovered our Gledhill Torrent cylinder had imploded, leaving water constantly refilling and pouring out water:

• into the airing cupboard in my childs bedroom above the garage and some of the engineered oak floor outside the airing cupboard / into the bedroom. However, below this floor, about 80% of the plastered (not painted) garage ceiling is wet and was dripping water, with an internal brick wall on one side of the garage wet to the touch. We installed extra layers of insulation in the bedroom floor because of it being above the garage - from the bottom up, the garage ceiling to the top of the bedroom floor above consists of:

• Plastered ceiling in garage

• Plasterboard

• Wooden joists with rock wool insulation in between them

• Wooden floorboards

• Foam insulation

• Chipboard subfloor

• Engineered wood flooring

I can’t see how this can dry out completely, especially the chipboard that disintegrates when it’s wet - so my gut feeling is that in time, it would create problems to the ceiling / engineered oak floor above.

• Our walk-in wardrobe adjacent to the airing cupboard suffered water damage, with soaked carpeting and damp walls. Dehumidifiers have been running to prevent our clothes from becoming damp.

• In my second son's bedroom, which backs onto the airing cupboard, condensation marks have appeared on the walls. It's unclear whether this is due to escaping steam during the cylinder implosion, steam reaching the open attic space above, or other factors. Despite airing, the room still smells damp.

• The hallway (another room further removed again) has condensation marks above the entrance into my second sons bedroom.

• Water was pouring into our garage below, onto numerous items that have been standing or had water slowly dripping over them; this includes a solid wood freestanding kitchen with granite worktops that we were looking to install to make a pottery space for me, the electrics of my pottery wheel were soaking, various electric garden machinery, a brand new cast iron stove waiting to be installed in the main house is rusting from drips having splashed up from the floor (it’s still standing on it’s original delivery crate), electric tools stored under our workbench . . . 

We have called our insurance who:

• won’t cover the original fixing of the leak. Therefore the plumber emergency call out, stopping of the water and cylinder purchase / labour is a cost we have to cover. (about £1.5k)

• should hopefully cover the damage and we have an assessor coming out this week. All of this is going to put up our insurance cost, as well as put us out of pocket considerably. It’s £500 excess on each of buildings and insurance

Therefore, before even hoping the insurance will cover any loss / repair work, we’re out of pocket by £2.5k between excess and buying a new cylinder and the cost of the callout / labour to install. We have considerably downgraded the cylinder we replaced it with in order to make it more affordable to us.

I called the plumber as soon as we discovered the issue on Sunday (his first comment was that the previous week he hadn’t needed to do anything with the cylinder; yet we had needed to completely empty the airing cupboard in order for him to have access to it and the water tank above). Anyway, on the Sunday he came out immediately and stopped the water flow. The next morning, he installed a new cylinder that we paid for so we had hot water. Currently, we're relying on the immersion for hot water, with plans to reconnect to the combi boiler upon his return from vacation in two weeks. However, we had to request his return before his departure as he initially misplumbed the setup in his haste to complete the job.

The plumber asserted that the cylinder's implosion was caused by a blockage, and that effectively it occurred under his watch. I have a recording of his remarks made during a conversation with my husband, unbeknownst to either of them at the time. Considering the plumber drained the system twice before the incident, should we pursue a claim through his public liability insurance?

Thus far, the plumber hasn't suggested this option, nor have we broached the topic with him. While I'm hesitant to strain our relationship, his avoidance of this option concerns me. We're already financially strained, having downgraded the replacement cylinder to afford it. Additionally, I worry about potential increases in our house insurance premiums resulting from filing a claim.

The plumber mentioned after the incident that he believed the air intake pipe to the cylinder wasn't installed at the correct angle. It's noteworthy that he didn't bring this up earlier, especially considering his frequent work on our system. If he had concerns, shouldn't he have addressed them proactively, given our reliance on his expertise and the numerous times he has drained our system in the past?

Aylesbury_Duck

clairelojo said:

Between April 4th and 5th, we hired a plumber to undertake various tasks in our home, including removing two radiators, replacing one with a larger unit, and repairing a broken valve. This required draining the central heating system each day over the two-day period.

Leaving for a two-night family visit on Friday morning, we trusted the plumber, with whom we had a long-standing relationship and had worked on our plumbing system numerous times before, to complete the work and secure the house. Upon our return Sunday evening, we discovered our Gledhill Torrent cylinder had imploded, leaving water constantly refilling and pouring out water:

• into the airing cupboard in my childs bedroom above the garage and some of the engineered oak floor outside the airing cupboard / into the bedroom. However, below this floor, about 80% of the plastered (not painted) garage ceiling is wet and was dripping water, with an internal brick wall on one side of the garage wet to the touch. We installed extra layers of insulation in the bedroom floor because of it being above the garage - from the bottom up, the garage ceiling to the top of the bedroom floor above consists of:

• Plastered ceiling in garage

• Plasterboard

• Wooden joists with rock wool insulation in between them

• Wooden floorboards

• Foam insulation

• Chipboard subfloor

• Engineered wood flooring

I can’t see how this can dry out completely, especially the chipboard that disintegrates when it’s wet - so my gut feeling is that in time, it would create problems to the ceiling / engineered oak floor above.

• Our walk-in wardrobe adjacent to the airing cupboard suffered water damage, with soaked carpeting and damp walls. Dehumidifiers have been running to prevent our clothes from becoming damp.

• In my second son's bedroom, which backs onto the airing cupboard, condensation marks have appeared on the walls. It's unclear whether this is due to escaping steam during the cylinder implosion, steam reaching the open attic space above, or other factors. Despite airing, the room still smells damp.

• The hallway (another room further removed again) has condensation marks above the entrance into my second sons bedroom.

• Water was pouring into our garage below, onto numerous items that have been standing or had water slowly dripping over them; this includes a solid wood freestanding kitchen with granite worktops that we were looking to install to make a pottery space for me, the electrics of my pottery wheel were soaking, various electric garden machinery, a brand new cast iron stove waiting to be installed in the main house is rusting from drips having splashed up from the floor (it’s still standing on it’s original delivery crate), electric tools stored under our workbench . . . 

We have called our insurance who:

• won’t cover the original fixing of the leak. Therefore the plumber emergency call out, stopping of the water and cylinder purchase / labour is a cost we have to cover. (about £1.5k)

• should hopefully cover the damage and we have an assessor coming out this week. All of this is going to put up our insurance cost, as well as put us out of pocket considerably. It’s £500 excess on each of buildings and insurance

Therefore, before even hoping the insurance will cover any loss / repair work, we’re out of pocket by £2.5k between excess and buying a new cylinder and the cost of the callout / labour to install. We have considerably downgraded the cylinder we replaced it with in order to make it more affordable to us.

I called the plumber as soon as we discovered the issue on Sunday (his first comment was that the previous week he hadn’t needed to do anything with the cylinder; yet we had needed to completely empty the airing cupboard in order for him to have access to it and the water tank above). Anyway, on the Sunday he came out immediately and stopped the water flow. The next morning, he installed a new cylinder that we paid for so we had hot water. Currently, we're relying on the immersion for hot water, with plans to reconnect to the combi boiler upon his return from vacation in two weeks. However, we had to request his return before his departure as he initially misplumbed the setup in his haste to complete the job.

The plumber asserted that the cylinder's implosion was caused by a blockage, and that effectively it occurred under his watch. I have a recording of his remarks made during a conversation with my husband, unbeknownst to either of them at the time. Considering the plumber drained the system twice before the incident, should we pursue a claim through his public liability insurance?

Thus far, the plumber hasn't suggested this option, nor have we broached the topic with him. While I'm hesitant to strain our relationship, his avoidance of this option concerns me. We're already financially strained, having downgraded the replacement cylinder to afford it. Additionally, I worry about potential increases in our house insurance premiums resulting from filing a claim.

The plumber mentioned after the incident that he believed the air intake pipe to the cylinder wasn't installed at the correct angle. It's noteworthy that he didn't bring this up earlier, especially considering his frequent work on our system. If he had concerns, shouldn't he have addressed them proactively, given our reliance on his expertise and the numerous times he has drained our system in the past?

Aside from the unenviable complexity of sorting out all the physical stuff you've got to sort out, isn't the financial side as straightforward as leaving it to your insurer to sort out?  Isn't their job to make sure you're not out of pocket, and therefore to make any claims on your plumber or his insurance?  Won't it introduce complexity and potential overlap if you have separate claims running with two insurance companies?

As for the element your insurer won't cover - the call out, stopping of the water and cylinder purchase / labour (about £1.5k), I'm a little unsure why you paid the plumber in the first instance, given the likelihood that his work caused it.  I'd be going straight back to him to ask for that back.  It seems highly unlikely that substantial plumbing work on Thursday and Friday wasn't the cause of a massive problem immediately afterwards (I suspect the leak started as soon as work finished on Friday and continued for 48 hours before you returned).  Why would you be liable for a callout and replacement of the cylinder he'd fitted just two days previously, for which you'd already paid him?

TELLIT01

There would be questions about the legality of using the recording a conversation where neither party knew they were being recorded.  Even if your husband was aware of the recording but the plumber wasn't I don't think it could be used if it went to court.  I may be corrected on that.

DullGreyGuy

Aylesbury_Duck said:

clairelojo said:

Between April 4th and 5th, we hired a plumber to undertake various tasks in our home, including removing two radiators, replacing one with a larger unit, and repairing a broken valve. This required draining the central heating system each day over the two-day period.

Leaving for a two-night family visit on Friday morning, we trusted the plumber, with whom we had a long-standing relationship and had worked on our plumbing system numerous times before, to complete the work and secure the house. Upon our return Sunday evening, we discovered our Gledhill Torrent cylinder had imploded, leaving water constantly refilling and pouring out water:

• into the airing cupboard in my childs bedroom above the garage and some of the engineered oak floor outside the airing cupboard / into the bedroom. However, below this floor, about 80% of the plastered (not painted) garage ceiling is wet and was dripping water, with an internal brick wall on one side of the garage wet to the touch. We installed extra layers of insulation in the bedroom floor because of it being above the garage - from the bottom up, the garage ceiling to the top of the bedroom floor above consists of:

• Plastered ceiling in garage

• Plasterboard

• Wooden joists with rock wool insulation in between them

• Wooden floorboards

• Foam insulation

• Chipboard subfloor

• Engineered wood flooring

I can’t see how this can dry out completely, especially the chipboard that disintegrates when it’s wet - so my gut feeling is that in time, it would create problems to the ceiling / engineered oak floor above.

• Our walk-in wardrobe adjacent to the airing cupboard suffered water damage, with soaked carpeting and damp walls. Dehumidifiers have been running to prevent our clothes from becoming damp.

• In my second son's bedroom, which backs onto the airing cupboard, condensation marks have appeared on the walls. It's unclear whether this is due to escaping steam during the cylinder implosion, steam reaching the open attic space above, or other factors. Despite airing, the room still smells damp.

• The hallway (another room further removed again) has condensation marks above the entrance into my second sons bedroom.

• Water was pouring into our garage below, onto numerous items that have been standing or had water slowly dripping over them; this includes a solid wood freestanding kitchen with granite worktops that we were looking to install to make a pottery space for me, the electrics of my pottery wheel were soaking, various electric garden machinery, a brand new cast iron stove waiting to be installed in the main house is rusting from drips having splashed up from the floor (it’s still standing on it’s original delivery crate), electric tools stored under our workbench . . . 

We have called our insurance who:

• won’t cover the original fixing of the leak. Therefore the plumber emergency call out, stopping of the water and cylinder purchase / labour is a cost we have to cover. (about £1.5k)

• should hopefully cover the damage and we have an assessor coming out this week. All of this is going to put up our insurance cost, as well as put us out of pocket considerably. It’s £500 excess on each of buildings and insurance

Therefore, before even hoping the insurance will cover any loss / repair work, we’re out of pocket by £2.5k between excess and buying a new cylinder and the cost of the callout / labour to install. We have considerably downgraded the cylinder we replaced it with in order to make it more affordable to us.

I called the plumber as soon as we discovered the issue on Sunday (his first comment was that the previous week he hadn’t needed to do anything with the cylinder; yet we had needed to completely empty the airing cupboard in order for him to have access to it and the water tank above). Anyway, on the Sunday he came out immediately and stopped the water flow. The next morning, he installed a new cylinder that we paid for so we had hot water. Currently, we're relying on the immersion for hot water, with plans to reconnect to the combi boiler upon his return from vacation in two weeks. However, we had to request his return before his departure as he initially misplumbed the setup in his haste to complete the job.

The plumber asserted that the cylinder's implosion was caused by a blockage, and that effectively it occurred under his watch. I have a recording of his remarks made during a conversation with my husband, unbeknownst to either of them at the time. Considering the plumber drained the system twice before the incident, should we pursue a claim through his public liability insurance?

Thus far, the plumber hasn't suggested this option, nor have we broached the topic with him. While I'm hesitant to strain our relationship, his avoidance of this option concerns me. We're already financially strained, having downgraded the replacement cylinder to afford it. Additionally, I worry about potential increases in our house insurance premiums resulting from filing a claim.

The plumber mentioned after the incident that he believed the air intake pipe to the cylinder wasn't installed at the correct angle. It's noteworthy that he didn't bring this up earlier, especially considering his frequent work on our system. If he had concerns, shouldn't he have addressed them proactively, given our reliance on his expertise and the numerous times he has drained our system in the past?

Aside from the unenviable complexity of sorting out all the physical stuff you've got to sort out, isn't the financial side as straightforward as leaving it to your insurer to sort out?  Isn't their job to make sure you're not out of pocket, and therefore to make any claims on your plumber or his insurance?  Won't it introduce complexity and potential overlap if you have separate claims running with two insurance companies?

The Home insurer will deal with the insured losses which at a minimum will exclude the excess and fixing the leak. There could be other uninsured losses like time off work etc. 

If the OP has Legal Expenses on their Home insurance they may be able to assist in the recovery of the uninsured losses. These two claims do happen in parallel initially, with varying quality of cross communication, but if it becomes necessary to litigate the two claims have to come together again.

If the OP doesn't have LE cover or this is outside of the scope of it then its not overly hard to ride the coat tails of the insurer, allow them to establish liability etc and once the other insurer has confirmed they'll accept the claim then the OP can add on their uninsured losses. Again if litigation becomes necessary the insurer will ask about the UIL and add that to their court action. 

clairelojo

TELLIT01 said:

There would be questions about the legality of using the recording a conversation where neither party knew they were being recorded.  Even if your husband was aware of the recording but the plumber wasn't I don't think it could be used if it went to court.  I may be corrected on that.

I was thinking this to be honest, I wasn't entirely confident doing it; I'm just worried that the plumber is very much avoiding taking any responsibility when I feel it's the draining of the system that has caused it

clairelojo

If the OP doesn't have LE cover or this is outside of the scope of it then its not overly hard to ride the coat tails of the insurer, allow them to establish liability etc and once the other insurer has confirmed they'll accept the claim then the OP can add on their uninsured losses. Again if litigation becomes necessary the insurer will ask about the UIL and add that to their court action. 

I hadn't considered this, very valid & useful thanks

clairelojo

 Why would you be liable for a callout and replacement of the cylinder he'd fitted just two days previously, for which you'd already paid him?

He didn't install a cylinder 2 days prior, only drain system down twice last week in order to remove radiators and replace a value on another. The original cylinder was a thermal heat store that should allow all sorts of renewables to feed into it should we decide to invest in these in the future, and was installed in 2007 by another plumber.

We have replaced with a less complex model yesterday, that this plumber did install, to save our outlay but as you say, I do feel that the plumber should be liable to provide and install; I was worried that had this been ventured straight away, he would not have accepted it and we would be left in a house with no hot water or heating, and we've got 3 children to think of

sheramber

clairelojo said:

TELLIT01 said:

There would be questions about the legality of using the recording a conversation where neither party knew they were being recorded.  Even if your husband was aware of the recording but the plumber wasn't I don't think it could be used if it went to court.  I may be corrected on that.

I was thinking this to be honest, I wasn't entirely confident doing it; I'm just worried that the plumber is very much avoiding taking any responsibility when I feel it's the draining of the system that has caused it

Insurance companies advise you do not admit responsibility.

Rodders53

EXplosion is due to over pressure and something bursting.
IMplosion is due to a vacuum and would cause the cylinder to collapse in on itself.

FWIW, IME 6 years ago, only one excess was payable on a Buildings and Contents claim for escape of water (caused by vermin chewing through plastic pipes).  Since then though Escape of Water excess has rocketed to £1k I think?

NB failure of the unvented cylinder due to (say) the boiler and/or immersion heater running continuously, should have tripped various pressure and temperature valves which should have safely vented the water to outside the home via pipework installed for that purpose. 
Original install incorrect and/or not maintained properly?  G3 plumbers need to do an annual service on unvented cylinders to check those safety devices?

Personally, I do not see how draining the CH system could have damaged the cylinder on the cold water / hot water side and therefore this is likely coincidental...

Hope you have a loss adjuster and/or post-incident plumber report that can suggest the most likely cause of the failure.  If that professional report points the finger at your workman then your Insurers are bound to want to pursue their cost recovery from him?

km1500

don't forget plumber is only liable if they are negligent or work in a way that is not the way a normal plumber would work - not sure of the legal expression

this means you are assuming that it is the plumber's negligence that cause the leak but it may well be something else. this needs to be established.

there is also the element of your contribution to the disaster - was it wise to leave for a two-day vacation in the middle of major plumbing work that had not even been completed 

I'm only pointing out here things that needs to be considered and not in any way blaming you

clairelojo

km1500 said:

don't forget plumber is only liable if they are negligent or work in a way that is not the way a normal plumber would work - not sure of the legal expression

this means you are assuming that it is the plumber's negligence that cause the leak but it may well be something else. this needs to be established.

there is also the element of your contribution to the disaster - was it wise to leave for a two-day vacation in the middle of major plumbing work that had not even been completed 

I'm only pointing out here things that needs to be considered and not in any way blaming you

Given he has done the same work in the past with no issues, I wouldn't have any reason to believe that there should be a problem. I didn't think removing radiators / changing a valve would be classed as major works.