Repairs to flat, who is responsible

Geoff9999

I bought a flat at an auction where the freeholders had gone to prison and there was all sorts of problems with it.
the pressing issue at the moment is that there are a load of pigeons in the loft caused by holes in the roof.
i’ve received this reply from the management company denying responsibility due to the previous leaseholder not reporting it and the flat being in a bad state of repair.
i don’t know how that can affect the outside of the building and cause damage to the roof. This whole situation is stressing me out, the longer it goes on the more money i’m losing out on. Should I challenge it legally or better off just paying it to get a tenant in?

Further to our agent’s recent inspection and their observations, the Freeholder is not liable for any damages arising from any act or neglect of Mr X.
When you purchased the property from Mr X, he was in breach of his lease for various issues. Furthermore, Mr X neglected his flat and allowed his flat to fall into disrepair, which caused damage to the loft and roof area part of the building as well as the Lessor's fixtures and fittings. Unfortunately, Mr X acted negligently and failed to notify the freeholder of any issues and allowed a pigeon infestation in the loft area above your flat. This negligent action and the failure to report such an important issue caused damage to the building and structure, which subsequently made him breach of his lease. According to your lease if the lessee acts negligently, they are responsible to carry out the repairs and indemnify the Freeholder of any expenses in relation to the lessee’s negligence. When you purchased the property, you subsequently took over the breaches of the lease. Your solicitor should have carried out their due diligence checks on the property before you purchasing the property such as service charge arrears and whether the leaseholder was in breach of their lease. This would have protected you and you could have asked Mr X to indemnify you for any service charge arrears and any other breaches such as the current position with the infestation of pigeons in your property. 
Unfortunately, in this case you are responsible for the costs of all the repairs and the cost of our agents to inspect your flat and loft area once you have carried out all the works. I would also like to remind you that you are not allowed to make any alterations to the original layout of your flat. Before, you commence the works we would also like you to notify us who will be carrying out the works and we would also need a copy of their insurance. 

I hope this clarifies the position of the Freeholder and we strongly urge you to seek legal independent advice so you can fully understand your lease.

propertyrental

Why the new thread

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6503494/absentee-freeholder-repairs-needed#latest

annetheman

This is one for Giles... https://anthonygold.co.uk/people/giles-peaker - basically the leaseholder v freeholder Dalai Lama [sp]. As with 95% of these leasehold disputes, your best bet is to pay under protest, then try to claw back. They will likely never pay it up front.

eddddy

This raises a huge number of questions. As a starting point:

• What did you say to the management company that resulted in the above answer?

• According to the lease, who is responsible for maintaining the roof and the loft space?

• What did the previous leaseholder do that caused damage to the loft and roof?

Does it really say this in the lease - it seems unlikely:

Geoff9999 said:
 According to your lease if the lessee acts negligently, they are responsible to carry out the repairs...

The rest of what the management company say might or might not be correct - It depends what your lease says, and it depends on what exactly the previous leaseholder did (or did not do).

TBH, it sounds like you're not super-knowledgeable about leases, building repairs, etc, so you might need help from a professional

You need somebody who can

• read your lease,
• inspect your flat,
• inspect the loft,
• inspect the roof -
• and liaise with the management company.

A solicitor won't inspect the flat, loft and roof. So perhaps hiring a Building Surveyor (who's comfortable reading a lease) would be a better bet than a solicitor to begin with.



As an aside, that reply from the Management company sounds quite aggressive. Was your original message to them aggressive? Where you asking them to do unreasonable things?

Geoff9999

I simply informed them of the situation that there’s pigeons up in the loft and holes in the roof. Nothing unreasonable was said at all. As I mentioned the owners of this company have been prosecuted and gone to prison for intimidating tenants.  
To me it makes no sense that the previous leaseholder could have done anything to have caused damage to the roof and therefore let pigeons in, they seem to be saying the issue is not informing them of it. But who knows when this damage took place.

ThisIsWeird

Geoff9999 said:

I bought a flat at an auction where the freeholders had gone to prison and there was all sorts of problems with it.
the pressing issue at the moment is that there are a load of pigeons in the loft caused by holes in the roof.
i’ve received this reply from the management company denying responsibility due to the previous leaseholder not reporting it and the flat being in a bad state of repair.
i don’t know how that can affect the outside of the building and cause damage to the roof. This whole situation is stressing me out, the longer it goes on the more money i’m losing out on. Should I challenge it legally or better off just paying it to get a tenant in?

More info, Geoff.

What does the whole property consist of, and what part does your new flat take up?

Do you have a copy of the deeds yet? If so, have you read them?! What does it say about liability for repairs to each area - roof, walls, windows, floors etc. - this should be pretty clearly outlined?

Usually, the Freeholder is responsible for maintaining and repairing the roof and outer walls, exterior fittings, doors, shared areas, stuff like that. The reason for this is simple - they need to keep the structure of the building in good condition, regardless of how each FH treats their own flat. It should be obvious that damage to, or failure of, the 'fabric' of the structure could lead to the deterioration of the whole building. These areas are also covered by the communal building's insurance, to which you all contribute. On that point, have you any idea what caused the damage to the roof? Is it simply age, or recent storm damage? The latter could well be covered by the insurance.

Each Leaseholder is usually then responsible for their interior walls, fittings, and sometimes the windows - that kind of thing. Ie, if they deteriorate or are damaged, they shouldn't affect the main building or any other Leaseholder.

So, based on that, the Freeholder is responsible for the roof, the repairs of which all the Leaseholders are liable to contribute.

The grey bit might be the responsibility of each Leaseholder to report any damage at an early stage, so that corrective action can be taken. More than this, tho', the FH appears to consider your vendor directly liable for this damage; "Mr X neglected his flat and allowed his flat to fall into disrepair, which caused damage to the loft and roof area part of the building." This is likely the crux - do you know what your vendor did to cause this damage to the roof?! How did 'neglecting' his flat cause holes in the roof?! These are important Qs.

First you need to clarify whether your deed is typical in stating what the FH and LHs are responsible for - is it as I suggested above? Then you look at your FH's 'get out', of blaming the previous LH for not telling anyone about the damage.

On the surface, I'd say the FH is pushing it. I'm assuming that your vendor didn't actually contribute to this damage, but only failed to report it? Read your deeds again - is there any mention of such timely reporting being a requirement?

There might be a case of the vendor - and now you - bearing some responsibility for the mess being caused by the pigeons, but how are you liable for the failure of the roof itself?

You have content's insurance, yes? Cool. Did you add Legal Protection to it? Tsk if not.

I suggest you need legal advice. So, read your deeds, write down everything that is relevant to this case, write down a concise account of what your FH has said, and then call up/visit/'chat' with a 'free half hour' consultation property specialist. I think that should be enough time for them to give you a good idea of where you stand, but get the facts briefly and concisely set up before you make contact.

Based on what they say, you get back to your FH.

eddddy

ThisIsWeird said:

I suggest you need legal advice. So, read your deeds, write down everything that is relevant to this case, write down a concise account of what your FH has said, and then call up/visit/'chat' with a 'free half hour' consultation property specialist. I think that should be enough time for them to give you a good idea of where you stand, but get the facts briefly and concisely set up before you make contact.

Based on what they say, you get back to your FH.

I don't think it would help the OP to talk to a solicitor at this stage.

A solicitor won't look at the roof and loft to assess how the damage was caused, or what needs to be done to fix it.

(And a solicitor won't look at the flat to assess what needs to be done to rectify any ongoing breaches of covenant.)

As I say, a better plan would be to hire a building surveyor to advise the OP on what the OP needs to do, and what the freeholder needs to do to sort the problems out.

Then work with the freeholder to devise a plan. If the freeholder won't accept a reasonable plan, perhaps that's the time to start taking legal advice.


... and at that point, asking the building surveyor to write a report which the solicitor can read, so that the solicitor can understand what the issues are.

ThisIsWeird

eddddy said:

ThisIsWeird said:

I suggest you need legal advice. So, read your deeds, write down everything that is relevant to this case, write down a concise account of what your FH has said, and then call up/visit/'chat' with a 'free half hour' consultation property specialist. I think that should be enough time for them to give you a good idea of where you stand, but get the facts briefly and concisely set up before you make contact.

Based on what they say, you get back to your FH.

I don't think it would help the OP to talk to a solicitor at this stage.

A solicitor won't look at the roof and loft to assess how the damage was caused, or what needs to be done to fix it.

(And a solicitor won't look at the flat to assess what needs to be done to rectify any ongoing breaches of covenant.)

As I say, a better plan would be to hire a building surveyor to advise the OP on what the OP needs to do, and what the freeholder needs to do to sort the problems out.

Then work with the freeholder to devise a plan. If the freeholder won't accept a reasonable plan, perhaps that's the time to start taking legal advice.


... and at that point, asking the building surveyor to write a report which the solicitor can read, so that the solicitor can understand what the issues are.

Fair enough.
But that was one small concluding part of my post, the gist of the rest being to read the deeds, and also try and find out what the previous owner supposedly did that allowed a hole large enough for a pigeon.
If the previous owner did nothing to cause the damage to the roof covering, but just ignored the resulting leak and pigeon, the OP should only be liable for making good the resulting mess. The roof itself is almost certainly a FH responsibility, and clearly needs repair work, which it would have done in any case.

Geoff9999

ThisIsWeird said:

Geoff9999 said:

I bought a flat at an auction where the freeholders had gone to prison and there was all sorts of problems with it.
the pressing issue at the moment is that there are a load of pigeons in the loft caused by holes in the roof.
i’ve received this reply from the management company denying responsibility due to the previous leaseholder not reporting it and the flat being in a bad state of repair.
i don’t know how that can affect the outside of the building and cause damage to the roof. This whole situation is stressing me out, the longer it goes on the more money i’m losing out on. Should I challenge it legally or better off just paying it to get a tenant in?

More info, Geoff.

What does the whole property consist of, and what part does your new flat take up?

Do you have a copy of the deeds yet? If so, have you read them?! What does it say about liability for repairs to each area - roof, walls, windows, floors etc. - this should be pretty clearly outlined?

Usually, the Freeholder is responsible for maintaining and repairing the roof and outer walls, exterior fittings, doors, shared areas, stuff like that. The reason for this is simple - they need to keep the structure of the building in good condition, regardless of how each FH treats their own flat. It should be obvious that damage to, or failure of, the 'fabric' of the structure could lead to the deterioration of the whole building. These areas are also covered by the communal building's insurance, to which you all contribute. On that point, have you any idea what caused the damage to the roof? Is it simply age, or recent storm damage? The latter could well be covered by the insurance.

Each Leaseholder is usually then responsible for their interior walls, fittings, and sometimes the windows - that kind of thing. Ie, if they deteriorate or are damaged, they shouldn't affect the main building or any other Leaseholder.

So, based on that, the Freeholder is responsible for the roof, the repairs of which all the Leaseholders are liable to contribute.

The grey bit might be the responsibility of each Leaseholder to report any damage at an early stage, so that corrective action can be taken. More than this, tho', the FH appears to consider your vendor directly liable for this damage; "Mr X neglected his flat and allowed his flat to fall into disrepair, which caused damage to the loft and roof area part of the building." This is likely the crux - do you know what your vendor did to cause this damage to the roof?! How did 'neglecting' his flat cause holes in the roof?! These are important Qs.

First you need to clarify whether your deed is typical in stating what the FH and LHs are responsible for - is it as I suggested above? Then you look at your FH's 'get out', of blaming the previous LH for not telling anyone about the damage.

On the surface, I'd say the FH is pushing it. I'm assuming that your vendor didn't actually contribute to this damage, but only failed to report it? Read your deeds again - is there any mention of such timely reporting being a requirement?

There might be a case of the vendor - and now you - bearing some responsibility for the mess being caused by the pigeons, but how are you liable for the failure of the roof itself?

You have content's insurance, yes? Cool. Did you add Legal Protection to it? Tsk if not.

I suggest you need legal advice. So, read your deeds, write down everything that is relevant to this case, write down a concise account of what your FH has said, and then call up/visit/'chat' with a 'free half hour' consultation property specialist. I think that should be enough time for them to give you a good idea of where you stand, but get the facts briefly and concisely set up before you make contact.

Based on what they say, you get back to your FH.

Appreciate all your replies, the flat is one of 26. 4 are sold on long leases and 22 are owned by this dodgy freeholder company.
i don’t know what has caused the damage and as it’s on the top floor of a four floor building that may require scaffolding to investigate or at least to clear the mess and pigeons from the loft.
i’ve had a look at the lease and it seems to say the freeholder is responsible for the roof, i’ll try to include a pic

ThisIsWeird

Geoff9999 said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Geoff9999 said:

I bought a flat at an auction where the freeholders had gone to prison and there was all sorts of problems with it.
the pressing issue at the moment is that there are a load of pigeons in the loft caused by holes in the roof.
i’ve received this reply from the management company denying responsibility due to the previous leaseholder not reporting it and the flat being in a bad state of repair.
i don’t know how that can affect the outside of the building and cause damage to the roof. This whole situation is stressing me out, the longer it goes on the more money i’m losing out on. Should I challenge it legally or better off just paying it to get a tenant in?

More info, Geoff.

What does the whole property consist of, and what part does your new flat take up?

Do you have a copy of the deeds yet? If so, have you read them?! What does it say about liability for repairs to each area - roof, walls, windows, floors etc. - this should be pretty clearly outlined?

Usually, the Freeholder is responsible for maintaining and repairing the roof and outer walls, exterior fittings, doors, shared areas, stuff like that. The reason for this is simple - they need to keep the structure of the building in good condition, regardless of how each FH treats their own flat. It should be obvious that damage to, or failure of, the 'fabric' of the structure could lead to the deterioration of the whole building. These areas are also covered by the communal building's insurance, to which you all contribute. On that point, have you any idea what caused the damage to the roof? Is it simply age, or recent storm damage? The latter could well be covered by the insurance.

Each Leaseholder is usually then responsible for their interior walls, fittings, and sometimes the windows - that kind of thing. Ie, if they deteriorate or are damaged, they shouldn't affect the main building or any other Leaseholder.

So, based on that, the Freeholder is responsible for the roof, the repairs of which all the Leaseholders are liable to contribute.

The grey bit might be the responsibility of each Leaseholder to report any damage at an early stage, so that corrective action can be taken. More than this, tho', the FH appears to consider your vendor directly liable for this damage; "Mr X neglected his flat and allowed his flat to fall into disrepair, which caused damage to the loft and roof area part of the building." This is likely the crux - do you know what your vendor did to cause this damage to the roof?! How did 'neglecting' his flat cause holes in the roof?! These are important Qs.

First you need to clarify whether your deed is typical in stating what the FH and LHs are responsible for - is it as I suggested above? Then you look at your FH's 'get out', of blaming the previous LH for not telling anyone about the damage.

On the surface, I'd say the FH is pushing it. I'm assuming that your vendor didn't actually contribute to this damage, but only failed to report it? Read your deeds again - is there any mention of such timely reporting being a requirement?

There might be a case of the vendor - and now you - bearing some responsibility for the mess being caused by the pigeons, but how are you liable for the failure of the roof itself?

You have content's insurance, yes? Cool. Did you add Legal Protection to it? Tsk if not.

I suggest you need legal advice. So, read your deeds, write down everything that is relevant to this case, write down a concise account of what your FH has said, and then call up/visit/'chat' with a 'free half hour' consultation property specialist. I think that should be enough time for them to give you a good idea of where you stand, but get the facts briefly and concisely set up before you make contact.

Based on what they say, you get back to your FH.

Appreciate all your replies, the flat is one of 26. 4 are sold on long leases and 22 are owned by this dodgy freeholder company.
i don’t know what has caused the damage and as it’s on the top floor of a four floor building that may require scaffolding to investigate or at least to clear the mess and pigeons from the loft.
i’ve had a look at the lease and it seems to say the freeholder is responsible for the roof, i’ll try to include a pic

"I don’t know what has caused the damage and as it’s on the top floor of a four floor building that may require scaffolding to investigate." There, almost certainly, is the rub.

If your vendor has climbed on to the roof and ripped off some tiles from a, otherwise, good-condition roof, then chances are you will have taken on the responsibility for fixing this.

If the roof has deteriorated through natural causes - age or storms - then this is the responsibility of the FH, to which all the LHs contribute.

If your vendor stalled in informing the FH of the 'natural' damage to the roof, and - as a result - there are now pigeons in t'loft, then you will likely have taken on the responsibility for making them pigeons homeless, and for tidying up their mess. But the hole in t'roof remains the FH's responsibility.

That's my general understanding of such a situation.

What to do? No idea, short of getting legal advice. But you may wish to inform all the other flat owners that there's a hole in the roof that's letting in water, and that the cause is currently unknown, but that the FH is refusing to act on it. The overall fabric of the building is at risk as a result, and all their properties will be at risk either directly or financially as things deteriorate. And forget trying to sell whilst this is going on.

You have contents insurance? Did this ask about the condition of the building - 'is it in good order'? If so, best call them up and advise them of the situation - "hole in roof, letting in pigeons, FH not responding..."