Listed building - added complications when buying?

pjs493

The house I’m considering putting an offer in on is a Grade I Listed Building. The current plan (which is constantly evolving) is to have a large deposit and small mortgage so I have spare funds for emergencies and to update bathrooms and the kitchen in slow time. The property is perfectly liveable as it is, just rather dated. 

I just wondered if anyone has any experiences of buying a listed building and if this had made things like surveys, conveyancing, etc take longer and if it was more expensive?

Any pointers, hints, tips, personal experiences, etc?

uralmaid

We bought a Grade 2 listed cottage.  Every little change we hoped to make had to be signed off with listed building consent.  Before we moved in we were visiting weekly and cleaning etc. Over the Xmas break someone broke in. When we wanted to install a burglar alarm we were only allowed to place the alarm box where the roof joined the walls which was just above my head height and they insisted it had to be painted a dark forest green colour.  Where it had to be placed was madness as anyone could just rip the box from the wall. Everything took longer and was more costly.  After 18 months of constant wrangling with the planning and listed building consent people we had had enough and sold it. I love old property but the listing is so contrary. I watch lots of house programmes and it always amazes me how some of them knock them about inside and out  and don't seem to have any problem getting consent.  Where our next house i, 2 doors down is a very old farmhouse with a small cottage in the garden. The mother and father live in the farmhouse and the son and his family live in the cottage.  When they decided to do some renovation work on the cottage the only way they could get listed building consent was to build a glass corridor adjoining the cottage and the farmhouse.  They were only allowed to share a kitchen with the farmhouse and not install a new one in the cottage, even though the two dwellings had been totally seperate for over 25 years. Utter madness.

Robin9

Insurance will be high - ask the present owner who they are with - 

ThisIsWeird

Hi pjs.
I have no idea whether the G1 status will make the buying process more costly and take longer, but you will know that it'll make the ongoing upkeep more so? Be completely realistic about the potential sums involved.
Someone I know has just had a survey carried out on a Victorian house they are buying (a 'normal' house), and I was impressed that the surveyor put ballpark sums at the end of the report against all the jobs that were needed fairly urgently, and those more medium term. The estimates had a fair amount of flexibility in them (eg. 'Rewiring - £5-7k'), but were realistic figures, and very helpful for the buyer to know. I'd ask your specialist-of-G1 properties surveyor if they could do the same?
I guess you'll have lots of Q's to ask your conveyancing solicitor regarding the level of internal updating you will be permitted to carry out, and other important info such as what the 'running' costs have been over the past, say, decade.
For instance, whereas you will likely be permitted to upgrade your kitchen and bathrooms to your preferred style - but confirm that you can! - it is far less likely that you will be permitted to change the positions of internal walls, even marginally. Ditto any other features, right down to architraves and skirtings.
So, ask beforehand about the sorts of updating you wish to carry out. Be absolutely clear.
Almost certainly the exterior maintenance will be significantly more costly that that of an unlisted property. Everything from matching a missing roof tile, to ditto guttering, windows, doors, external lights, potentially everything, possibly even paths and driveways. So make sure you know. How many historic 'specialists' in each trade will you need to use, instead of just or'nary decent tradespeople? 
What condition is the property in? Is it Freehold? (If Leasehold, I'd imagine that maintenance records would certainly be pretty comprehensive.)
I'm sure you know all this! In essence, I'd be more concerned that any added costs in the buying process will be minimal compared to the ongoing.
Be completely realistic about this; know what will need doing in accordance with the G1 in the medium and long terms, and have solid ballpark figures for these.

With respect to uralmaid, perhaps they didn't carry out full diligence pre purchase?

pjs493

Thank you all for your insights. It might be useful to add that the property is part of a larger building and it is the larger building in its entirety that is G1. In the 1980s the building was sympathetically divided into a number of individual dwellings. 

The property I’d like to purchase has some original features that I would preserve such as fireplaces, cornicing, etc. It has a modern kitchen and bathrooms (albeit again sympathetic to the nature of the building), none of those areas contain original features so it’s likely I could eg change the kitchen units without too much issue. But I’ll check when it gets to the stage of surveys. 

The larger property is leasehold and each residence holds a share in the leasehold limited company and votes on major works, annual cost increases, etc. The annual cost of the lease covers external upkeep for roofs, windows, doors, etc, buildings insurance, gardening, and so on. 

The rental property I currently own (and plan to sell to help fund this purchase) is also leasehold so I was wary about owning another leasehold property. I’ve asked lots of questions about the lease, so I’m pleased it’s controlled by the residents rather than a management company out to maximise profits (like my rental property). 

It’s good to know I should specifically seek out a surveyor who has experience with listed properties. 

ThisIsWeird

pjs493 said:

Thank you all for your insights. It might be useful to add that the property is part of a larger building and it is the larger building in its entirety that is G1. In the 1980s the building was sympathetically divided into a number of individual dwellings.

The property I’d like to purchase has some original features that I would preserve such as fireplaces, cornicing, etc. It has a modern kitchen and bathrooms (albeit again sympathetic to the nature of the building), none of those areas contain original features so it’s likely I could eg change the kitchen units without too much issue. But I’ll check when it gets to the stage of surveys.

The larger property is leasehold and each residence holds a share in the leasehold limited company and votes on major works, annual cost increases, etc. The annual cost of the lease covers external upkeep for roofs, windows, doors, etc, buildings insurance, gardening, and so on.

The rental property I currently own (and plan to sell to help fund this purchase) is also leasehold so I was wary about owning another leasehold property. I’ve asked lots of questions about the lease, so I’m pleased it’s controlled by the residents rather than a management company out to maximise profits (like my rental property).

It’s good to know I should specifically seek out a surveyor who has experience with listed properties. 

That's good to know, and the ideal setup in a leasehold property. 

I'd ask your conveyancer to obtain their accounts, and minutes from their meetings, for the past - ooh - good few years. Settle down with a cuppa. You'll soon see whether the other shareholders have a good grasp of their responsibilities. And the depth of their sink-fund :-)

My suggestion of a 'specialist' surveyor is only that, and is possibly not required - I don't know. But I'd certainly ask whether they are familiar about such buildings. My main point was the useful estimates given by that other surveyor I mentioned - I don't think I've seen that before. A similar list of estimates of costs for your property would make little sense if the surveyor couldn't take into account the fact it was G1.

All of this is/should be much reduced, tho', as it's part of a larger building - all, or most of, these external costs will very likely be shared. Tbh, a surveyor's task is much reduced here too - they are unlikely to be concerned about the risk of subsidence in one wee part of a large building, for example.

Is it a gorgeous building?! :-)

user1977

No particular complications when buying, other than the potential for having to check for additional consents for any past works. But if it's a leasehold flat I doubt there will be any surprises there.

As pointed out, buildings insurance will be more expensive, but you will (I presume) merely be paying your share of the insurance arranged by the freeholder rather than having to arrange it youself.

Albermarle

From what you say, then maybe the listed issues with the flat itself, will not be that much of a problem.

However having to contribute to maintaining the fabric of a large grade 1 listed building could be expensive.
Would be useful if you could find out what the typical annual cost of this is .

Section62

pjs493 said:

The property I’d like to purchase has some original features that I would preserve such as fireplaces, cornicing, etc. It has a modern kitchen and bathrooms (albeit again sympathetic to the nature of the building), none of those areas contain original features so it’s likely I could eg change the kitchen units without too much issue. But I’ll check when it gets to the stage of surveys. 

The first thing to understand about owning a listed building is that the listing is not just about 'original' features.

Listing is intended to capture the 'story' of the building, including how it has been changed and adapted over time.  The biggest mistake made is people thinking they are doing the right thing in 'restoring' a listed building back to how it should be, for example by replacing uPVC windows with wooden ones they think are 'in keeping'.

Essentially what you can and can't do is largely governed by the conservation officer/LB officer's take on what features are important in telling the story.  The sub-division of the building in the 1980's is again part of the story, so it is not impossible that the CO would regard features installed at that time to be an important part of the building's history.

On the flip side, where changes are permitted (especially external ones) it isn't uncommon for the CO to require something modern or very different in character rather than something which looks 'in keeping'.  Hence the glass walkway in uralmaid's example.  The idea is so it is clear to everyone what is new and what is older - like a new chapter in the building's story book.

So owning a listed building is great, so long as you can accept the restrictions and the inevitable increases in the cost of getting work done.  Also make sure any traders you get in to do work understand the importance of listing, so they don't do you a favour and remove or damage a feature which the CO may require you to put back in.

gm0

Where you are in the country makes a difference also.  The Listed Building Officers in cities where there are buildings of historic importance have the job because it is their passion and skill set. And because of the size of projects and sums involved. While there may be disagreements on a given design option. Competence and some familiarity with the rules of the game can more or less be expected. The problem will be attention and capacity for the "small jobs".  It will be expensive to use traditional methods and materials to maintain a listed structure but the extra process overhead with competent listing officers is more bearable.

But out in the shires where there are few listed buildings of scale and thus of professional interest.  The LA may sideways move some complete idiot and a largely unqualified one at that into the post.  Failing sideways out of another department of greater impact - so they can do less damage to fewer people.  They can't attract a good listing officer to their hotchpotch of sparse individual houses with the odd listed garden or feature.  Due to lower pay and lack of professional interest.  In this case you can expect whimsical bureaucratic incompetence of the very worst kind. Following none of the guidelines consistently.  Threatening you with legal enforcement constantly i.e. procedural bullying to do as you are told as in whatever the idiot has come up with "this week" and emailed over. (which very likely contradicts common sense, practicality, architectural standards and english heritage guidelines as well as what they said last week.

Utterly unashamed to repeatedly reverse their position and be just as belligerent in the opposite direction without shame.  If you are unlucky with the assigned one - then keep records of all communication and eventually you will have a file sufficient to push back on your particular asshat.  And the council legal department will look at their file if it escalated for action and groan.  And say Oh no not again.  Then you will be fine doing a pragmatic thing.  Albeit with a dispute running in the background.  Any enforcement court case would be laughed out after their prior documented behaviour - so the council leadership don't do enforcement on advice of the lawyers and will let it run.  Eventually your idiot leaves and you get a fresh one.  Which may be an opportunity to stop slow walking a project design and reset to a more sensible relationship. Or to normalise the older dispute.

It is also interesting to observe the zeal with which some of these people pursue individual householders to do mad !!!!!! at huge cost to the householder which is of marginal or no preservation benefit. And yet are bypassed or just give the council a cost saving pass - on changes that *they* make to their own buildings nearby.  Lightweight corruption is thus added to incompetence.  Apparently their obligations require costs savings to be factored in but ours as private citizens do not (which is not what the law says but mysteriously it still happens the subjective judgements on what is reasonable to allow - shift - markedly).

This partly explains why there are so many people who just don't engage with listed buildings and do terrible (or brilliant things caring for their building and just ignore them.  Decades ago and for decades at a time.  Finding out what the listing says and whether current state and condtion matches the filed approval history is a priority given you inherit the non-compliance of DIY Bob.

Nils carborundum illegitimi

Section62

gm0 said:

...But out in the shires where there are few listed buildings of scale and thus of professional interest.  The LA may sideways move some complete idiot and a largely unqualified one at that into the post....

Not sure of your experience with listed buildings in rural areas, but less-well developed areas typically feature great numbers of listed buildings of huge diversity of types and styles.  Buildings that in cities would have been demolished and redeveloped long before listing was a thing.

Some LBO/CO's would be attracted by working on grands projets, others enjoy more diversity and range.

And besides, the vehicle mileage and subsistence payments available (and necessary) in rural areas can more than make up for any shortfall in basic pay.

There are good and bad people working for all councils.