Excluded occupier - preparing for the worst

artyboy

Hi all,

I'm helping a relative move house shortly - they are moving into a house that they already own outright, but there is an individual currently living there. 

Long story, but basically when this property was being renovated a couple of years ago, he was one of the builders, who built a bit of a rapport with my relative, and asked if he could stay there afterwards - my relative was ok with this as it would otherwise have been empty and they came to an (informal, undocumented) agreement that he could stay if he covered bills like council tax, gas, electric and water (there has NEVER been any 'rent' referenced). In reality, this has only happened 'a bit' - the guy is hopeless at paying for anything.

2 years on and it's almost moving day - my relative has sent him various emails over the past few months saying this was coming and that the property needs to be vacated, but he's clearly made no effort to do so.

So to my question - if we all turn up and he's still there, and is getting awkward - am I right in thinking he is classed as an excluded occupier, has absolutely no right to stay there a minute longer (as he has received reasonable notice over a period of months), and if push came to shove, we could get the police to remove him as a criminal trespasser?

On that last point - and I really hope it doesn't come to that - I know the police's default position is always that it's a civil matter - if that's not the case, what chapter and verse should I quote to them to make them act?

Anyway, fingers crossed 

theartfullodger

Rent does not have to be £££££ - "moneysworth" can be as you described, all bills, repairs,  decoration, gardening etc etc.

Bad idea to have no documented signed agreement..

My view (others may disagree) is that he has an entirely valid AST but as no paperwork any s21 would be invalid.

Suggest bribery.  Were I in tenant's shoes I'd want a lot....

Tucosalamanca

I'm not sure that they're an excluded occupier, are any bills in his name, council tax for example?
A tenancy might have inadvertently been formed. If they claim to be a tenant, what will you do?

It's got potential to get messy very quickly, particularly if you turn up mob handed to evict them.
If the Police attend, they won't respond well if you quote chapter and verse (basically telling them how to do their job).

I would say that some professional advice is needed at a minimum and prepare for a lengthy fight.
The other option is to offer them money to vacate?

ThisIsWeird

Arty, in whose name is the CT and these bills?

I'm guessing from, "he could stay if he covered bills like council tax, gas, electric and water (there has NEVER been any 'rent' referenced). In reality, this has only happened 'a bit' - the guy is hopeless at paying for anything." that all these are all in your relative's name, and the builder was meant to send him regular payments or cash? If so, how were these payments made? Can your relative evidence this?

And what was said, agreed, understood, witnessed, recorded, about this arrangement? Can your relative evidence any of this? Can the builder?

Did your relative ever visit his property during the past couple of years?!

Does your relative have Legal Protection included in whatever existing house insurance he has? If so, they can provide advice.

I do not know the legalities of this at all, but I wonder if there is anything that could prevent your relative moving into his house and living there, regardless of whether the builder tries to remain as well? With some friends, if he doesn't feel comfy doing this on his own (obviously no threats or intimidation whatsoever). Once living there, the builder should be termed an 'excluded occupier', with all the lack of rights involved. I mean, if this became a fait-accompli - your relative moves in - could the builder try and retrospectively claim he's a 'tenant' of any other description, or will it then be too late for him? I don't know.

artyboy

Ok so messy as I was fearing. This particular relative is a walking disaster - they just dropped in to conversation yesterday that the guy was there...

I will have to check but I believe all bills in my relatives name and he was supposed to pay on their behalf as and when bills arrived. But TBC - I don't know exactly what has been said over email in terms of this arrangement, but if I find out he has been sending them money directly then I'm going to tear my remaining hair out and give up. It's just not worth it any more. I've had a lifetime of dealing with this sort of nonsense.

theartfullodger

Mortgage?  Insurance? Complying with all terms (unlikely ! ).  Realises CGT will be due on sale, and declared AND PAID within 60 days of sale?

That relative appears unable to post simple questions themselves not a good starting point 

Tenant may of course be viewing this....

Do keep us informed of progress.

Cheers & best wishes to all.

artyboy

No mortgage, what part of '"own outright" from my OP wasn't clear? CGT?? - you have an interesting style Artful but sometimes I do wonder what planet you are posting from. Where does CGT come into anything here? They are selling their principal residence to move into their second property.

Anyway, R has visited the property numerous times and especially over the past few months where they have incrementally been moving their belongings in! I think there have been some overnight stays as well.

i don't think this guy is a chancer, more someone that is poor at planning and was mentally putting off the day when they would need to leave. I'm more concerned he will say he has nowhere to go and try emotional blackmail, rather than us turn up to find him barricaded inside!

Anyway, we shall see what transpires...

Tucosalamanca

artyboy said:

No mortgage, what part of '"own outright" from my OP wasn't clear? CGT?? - you have an interesting style Artful but sometimes I do wonder what planet you are posting from. Where does CGT come into anything here? They are selling their principal residence to move into their second property.

Anyway, R has visited the property numerous times and especially over the past few months where they have incrementally been moving their belongings in! I think there have been some overnight stays as well.

i don't think this guy is a chancer, more someone that is poor at planning and was mentally putting off the day when they would need to leave. I'm more concerned he will say he has nowhere to go and try emotional blackmail, rather than us turn up to find him barricaded inside!

Anyway, we shall see what transpires...

This does reveal another issue. How has council tax been charged (and to whom)?
Is the current occupier named, or is it you relative? If so, are they paying second home council tax?

GCT will come into play at some point. Since this property has not been their main residence for the last couple of years (as per original posting), CGT will be chargeable for that time. Your relative needs to keep accurate records to avoid further potential issues later on.

Good luck with helping the relative, I know it can be draining...

RAS

Hi, even if CGT isn't a liability for the current house, your relative hasn't been the occupant of the second house for some years. So there will be a potential CGT liability if and when they sell that.

The possible difficulty with the building friend is that IF he goes to the Council seeking help with housing, he's likely to be told that leaving of his own volition would make him voluntarily homeless and ineligible for any support.

doodling

Hi,

To be honest, if R has been gradually moving in without objection from the current occupier then it is probably best that they continue to do so.  The longer that R lives there without objection, the harder it will be for the current occupier to claim illegal eviction or similar.

Whether R can also cause the occupier to move out is a bit of a question, but at least they will have somewhere to live.

This might be a case where it is better to adopt a relaxed approach and support the current occupier in moving out rather than to attempt to be forceful and get bogged down in a legal minefield.

EssexHebridean

If I were your relative, I would be looking to move in a couple of days earlier than my original plan, even if that means cohabiting with the builder for a couple of days... I would also not be looking to share my change of plans with said builder...