Recurring problem post warranty - my rights

PC304

Hi everyone,

I hope this is the correct forum. I am after some consumer advice following some issues I’ve encountered with a used vehicle purchase. 

The vehicle in question is a 2013 plate Ford Focus. It had 22,000 miles on the clock, a full main dealer service history with 10 stamps in the book all from a Ford main dealer. 

I purchased the car in March 23, and it now has around 29,000 miles on the clock. 

The car itself was purchased from a Ford Main dealer, and came with 6 months warranty. 

5 months into the purchase and the car developed a fault whereby it would into engage reverse gear. 

The car went in and eventually was diagnosed as needing a new gear box. They replaced this (I am told a whole new gearbox, not just a rebuild or a reconditioned one) and everything seemed fine. 

Fast forward another 6 months, and the car has developed the exact same fault. 

The car has done around 4000 miles since the new gearbox went in. 

The car is now out of its original warranty. 

My query is where do I stand with this? In my eyes they have not fixed the original fault as it has reared its head again, and have read lots of different consumer advice about if the fault still remains the responsibility of the garage to fix. 

Can anyone point me to some useful consumer law/advice relevant to my situation?

Ford have not yet looked at the car since the issue has recurred again, they are looking at it next Monday but I would just like to be armed with any law / rights I have in case they won’t repair under the original warranty. 

Personally I have had a bad experience with the garage and so I expect it will not be as simple as them agreeing to fix it. 

Also, the car is on HP finance. 

Many thanks for reading, and for any advice I can be pointed to. 

Regards 

Grey_Critic

No such thing as a new gearbox in my Ford experience - Factory reconditioned as standard when I was a Warranty Manager (Admitted some 25 years ago) I would suspect the same in your case - but it might not be a Ford Recon.. If it was I would approach Ford and discuss wil them.

It is also possible the fault is not the gearbox but the adjustment of the linkage - Sometimes they do do out odf adjustment

PC304

Grey_Critic said:

No such thing as a new gearbox in my Ford experience - Factory reconditioned as standard when I was a Warranty Manager (Admitted some 25 years ago) I would suspect the same in your case - but it might not be a Ford Recon.. If it was I would approach Ford and discuss wil them.

It is also possible the fault is not the gearbox but the adjustment of the linkage - Sometimes they do do out odf adjustment

Thanks for this. Hopefully it is a simple job just seems odd how it’s the exact same fault, I just don’t trust them unfortunately and would have taken to a different garage if I could have done 

Will have to wait until Monday and see what they say 

Mildly_Miffed

If the gearbox was replaced by the Ford dealer, then it'll be a Ford recon box, not a third party.

They won't repair it under the warranty that expired seven months ago. You don't get a new warranty with a repair under warranty - you're simply put into the position you were in if the fault hadn't occurred.
That position is that you bought a 10yo car a year ago, with a six month warranty.

You now own an 11yo car with a potential gearbox issue.

One question... Is it a normal manual box, or is it the Powershift semi-auto?

DullGreyGuy

PC304 said:

My query is where do I stand with this? In my eyes they have not fixed the original fault as it has reared its head again, and have read lots of different consumer advice about if the fault still remains the responsibility of the garage to fix. 

Can anyone point me to some useful consumer law/advice relevant to my situation?

I wouldn't jump the gun but see what they say first of all. 

The most commonly used legislation would be https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/24/ where you are looking at 24(5)(a) which gives you the right to reject goods that do not confirm with the contract after the merchant has attempted to repair it once before. Note however that they are entitled to reduce the refund to reflect the use you had of the goods prior to the rejection. 

PC304

Mildly_Miffed said:

If the gearbox was replaced by the Ford dealer, then it'll be a Ford recon box, not a third party.

They won't repair it under the warranty that expired seven months ago. You don't get a new warranty with a repair under warranty - you're simply put into the position you were in if the fault hadn't occurred.
That position is that you bought a 10yo car a year ago, with a six month warranty.

You now own an 11yo car with a potential gearbox issue.

One question... Is it a normal manual box, or is it the Powershift semi-auto?

Hi,

thanks for the reply. It’s a normal manual gearbox. 

Edit: just to clarify; is your position that the fact the fault was fixed now has no bearing on the current situation?

PC304

DullGreyGuy said:

PC304 said:

My query is where do I stand with this? In my eyes they have not fixed the original fault as it has reared its head again, and have read lots of different consumer advice about if the fault still remains the responsibility of the garage to fix. 

Can anyone point me to some useful consumer law/advice relevant to my situation?

I wouldn't jump the gun but see what they say first of all. 

The most commonly used legislation would be https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/24/ where you are looking at 24(5)(a) which gives you the right to reject goods that do not confirm with the contract after the merchant has attempted to repair it once before. Note however that they are entitled to reduce the refund to reflect the use you had of the goods prior to the rejection. 

Hi,

Thanks for the reply. 

How in reality does this work? I assume if they refuse to fix it citing whatever reason, it’s not just as simple as returning the car less a reduction of any use?

DullGreyGuy

PC304 said:

DullGreyGuy said:

PC304 said:

My query is where do I stand with this? In my eyes they have not fixed the original fault as it has reared its head again, and have read lots of different consumer advice about if the fault still remains the responsibility of the garage to fix. 

Can anyone point me to some useful consumer law/advice relevant to my situation?

I wouldn't jump the gun but see what they say first of all. 

The most commonly used legislation would be https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/24/ where you are looking at 24(5)(a) which gives you the right to reject goods that do not confirm with the contract after the merchant has attempted to repair it once before. Note however that they are entitled to reduce the refund to reflect the use you had of the goods prior to the rejection. 

Hi,

Thanks for the reply. 

How in reality does this work? I assume if they refuse to fix it citing whatever reason, it’s not just as simple as returning the car less a reduction of any use?

In principle you would inform the item is faulty again, as they have already repaired the item once before you are exercising your final right of rejection under the consumer rights act. Technically they can insist that you prove the item is fault and that isn't either fair wear and tear or user error in which case you pay for an engineers report on the same and assuming the report supports your case you add the cost of it to your claim against them. 

Depending on the company some will fight you tooth and nail the whole way, some may accept your right to reject the goods but then it becomes a fight over the valuation of use and others just act reasonably the whole way. You may be able to take it to the Motor Ombudsman if they are a member or if not its court if you cannot come to an agreement. With items below £10,000 this is simple, once it's over that legal costs can be included and so you need to more seriously consider your prospects. 

Never had to deal with a car but had issues with a freezer which I'd bought with a matching fridge from JL and whilst they were offering a partial refund they were refusing the rest of the claim for damages etc. Under £10k so litigated and their nominated solicitors almost instantly offered full settlement. 

Mildly_Miffed

DullGreyGuy said:

PC304 said:

DullGreyGuy said:

PC304 said:

My query is where do I stand with this? In my eyes they have not fixed the original fault as it has reared its head again, and have read lots of different consumer advice about if the fault still remains the responsibility of the garage to fix. 

Can anyone point me to some useful consumer law/advice relevant to my situation?

I wouldn't jump the gun but see what they say first of all. 

The most commonly used legislation would be https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/24/ where you are looking at 24(5)(a) which gives you the right to reject goods that do not confirm with the contract after the merchant has attempted to repair it once before. Note however that they are entitled to reduce the refund to reflect the use you had of the goods prior to the rejection. 

Hi,

Thanks for the reply. 

How in reality does this work? I assume if they refuse to fix it citing whatever reason, it’s not just as simple as returning the car less a reduction of any use?

In principle you would inform the item is faulty again, as they have already repaired the item once before you are exercising your final right of rejection under the consumer rights act. Technically they can insist that you prove the item is fault and that isn't either fair wear and tear or user error in which case you pay for an engineers report on the same and assuming the report supports your case you add the cost of it to your claim against them. 

Depending on the company some will fight you tooth and nail the whole way, some may accept your right to reject the goods but then it becomes a fight over the valuation of use and others just act reasonably the whole way. You may be able to take it to the Motor Ombudsman if they are a member or if not its court if you cannot come to an agreement. With items below £10,000 this is simple, once it's over that legal costs can be included and so you need to more seriously consider your prospects. 

Never had to deal with a car but had issues with a freezer which I'd bought with a matching fridge from JL and whilst they were offering a partial refund they were refusing the rest of the claim for damages etc. Under £10k so litigated and their nominated solicitors almost instantly offered full settlement. 

The minor issue with all that is the bit about reasonable expectations from used goods, and the bit about after six months the onus being on the buyer to prove the fault was present at sale.

Reasonable expectations for a car that's now 11 years old are... low. Remember, the average car in the UK is scrapped at 13yo.

The fault in the current gearbox clearly wasn't present at sale, because the gearbox that was faulty was changed for a new one under warranty.

DullGreyGuy

Mildly_Miffed said:
The fault in the current gearbox clearly wasn't present at sale, because the gearbox that was faulty was changed for a new one under warranty.

If your logic was true @Mildly_Miffed then the law is fundamentally flawed as it explicitly states that if the item has been repaired or replaced once and develops a second fault you have the right to reject the goods. If the item has been replaced in full then it'd never be the original item that develops a second fault. 

The law also doesn't say the fault has to have existed when you purchased it, the law instead says that they should be of satisfactory quality, durability, fit for purpose etc with a carve out for any issues highlighted prior to sale or would have been reasonably identifiable by inspection if that is possible